Reload Problem For Model 52-2

[Rick H.]

Hi All: I encountered a problem recently that is driving me crazy. I have been reloading for many years and my initial reason for venturing into this realm was to feed my Model 52's. I only use top notch equipment such as Redding dies and for many years things went quite smoothly. I mimicked factory loads by Federal for .38 HB wadcutters and life was good. Speeds were good and accuracy was also good. I use a Hornady LNL press for my pistol reloads and it has worked very well and I have no complaints. I primarily use Hornady 148 grain HB wadcutter lead bullets.

Last weekend I decided to run up some reloads for my Model 52 and prepared myself for a typical reloading session. All that changed after I started. I started noticing some of my reloaded ammunition was not seating the bullet properly. I was getting literal shards of lead clinging to the finished bullet. Some of these shards were quite long and looked like a metal fragment you would get when drilling a hole with a very sharp drill bit.

My first instinct was to see if any of my seating die had changed its adjustment or the expansion die changed which they did not. I then took the seating die apart and it was dirty from lead shards inside it. I cleaned it and reinstalled it but still had the same problem except now I noticed I would occasionally get literal O-rings of lead slightly attached to the top of the bullet. I have always tried to load my WC bullets flush with or slightly below the case mouth. The O-rings of lead reminded of seating a slightly oversized bullet in a muzzle loader.

After going thru all my settings and such I finally decided to look at the box of Hornady WC bullets I was using. Hornady claims these are .358" diameter bullets but this box was running large at .359" to .360" in diameter. I bought a new box of Hornady bullets and those were in fact .358" in diameter. I thought I had found the problem but in fact it was not totally solved. I was still experiencing shaved lead fragments and a couple of O-rings from my seated bullets.

I must admit I use a Redding Competition bullet seater and have done so for many years. This may be overkill for these loads and in fact Redding stated in their fine print that this seater should not be used with cast bullets, but it did work very well for me for a long time. I like being able to adjust the seater quickly if needed and it gives accurate adjustments.

Has anyone else experienced a problem like this and if so did you find the cause? My prepped cases before loading tend to be in the 1.140" length to as much as 1.148". They are never over 1.150". Does this sound acceptable? I have replaced the Redding seater die with a standard Lee seater die and have the same issues.

On a lark I converted my Hornady LNL over to 9mm loads and it performed great, but of course that uses jacketed bullets and not lead bullets. Any thoughts would be appreciated as I have been pulling my hair out on this issue for a week now. Thanks for any advice/help.

Rick H.

 

[Arkfarmer]

Hey Feller, sounds like too large a difference in case length to me. 008 thousandth of an inch is a large difference in the case belling die. I suspect that you aren't getting a good flare on the shorter cases and causing the lead shaving when you seat the bullet in the shorter cases. You will probably need to either trim your cases or sperate them in groups and set your belling die accordingly.... John

 

[mikld]

I think the most common reason for shaving lead is too little case mouth flare. I understand you are a seasoned reloader, but I often suggest using as much flare as necessary to get good, straight, clean bullet seating. Too much flare is when the case won't easily enter the crimp die. Excess flare is removed in the next step, crimping. Get good handloads now and worry about case life later...

 

[BE Mike]

Agree on case belling being too little. I would also suggest moving to Zero or Precision Delta 148 gr. HBWC bullets.

 

[socal s&w]

I know that this is not often done, but when I fed two Model 52's, I trimmed all of the same brand (WW) cases to assure three things;
1.) That they would all have the same flare for easy bullet insertion.
2.) That they would all fit inside the tight magazine.
3.) That they would all have the same bullet seating depth.
Never had any issues when I did my job. I STILL load the same rounds, but no longer have my 52's, so they are used in my revolver instead.
I trim all of my cases to assure uniformity. That's just me.

mike

 

[Forrest r]

The bullet is being shaved when it's being seated. You're seating and crimping at the same time. As the bullet is being seated/pushed in. The crimp is being applied (removing the flare). The larger diameter bullet is causing this.

A simple test is to back the seating die off so it isn't crimping the case. Adjust the seating stem down so it seats the bullet to the oal you want. If you're still shaving lead off of the bullets after doing this. Then you don't have enough flare on the case. If it doesn't shave lead then seat 10 bullets in the cases. Then back the seating stem off and adjust the seating die down until you have the desired crimp you want.

Re-test and see if you are still shaving lead. If you are you'll need to size the bullets down to .358" or seat the bullet in 1 step and crimp in another step.

I seat and crimp strait walled cases in 1 step (revolver reloads). And seat the bullet in 1 step and crimp in another step with pistol cases (tapered cases) and bottle necked rifle cases.

 

[Rick H.]

Thanks for the replies guys. These were all things I covered in my process to eliminate this problem. The seating die I have been using does not crimp the case, it only is a "seater". The case belling operation is done in the first press location and the seater die only allows about .003" to .004" of a flare. Any more flare than that is removed by the seating die body as the case is introduced to it. It is a very tight fit for the case and flare into the seater die body. When I try to bell, or flare the case opening anymore than .003" to .004" the seater body removes that flare to what it allows so making the flare larger is pointless.

I thought I had discovered the problem when I mic'd the bullets and found they were slightly larger than I thought, but even correctly sized bullets are giving me problems. Even buying a standard run of the mill seater, that I thought might be looser on the flare squeeze, hasn't helped the problem. Being that I am out of other options, I have ordered a new Redding seating die to install and try. I hate to spend the money on a guess, but I don't know what else to try at this point. The odd thing is that the combination I had in my LNL press worked great for many years and then suddenly it didn't. I sure would like to find out why or what changed. Thanks again for the suggestions.

Rick H.

 

[Model19man]

I would check the case flaring. Then use a separate crimp tool from the seating die. Finally I would make sure that the bullets being used have not changed some how. I use Berry plated 148 grain DEWC for 38 Special and have not had that issue.

 

[mikld]

"The case belling operation is done in the first press location and the seater die only allows about .003" to .004" of a flare. Any more flare than that is removed by the seating die body as the case is introduced to it. It is a very tight fit for the case and flare into the seater die body. When I try to bell, or flare the case opening anymore than .003" to .004" the seater body removes that flare to what it allows so making the flare larger is pointless".
I would either hone the seating die out to a larger ID or purchase one that allows a full case flare...

 

[Pantera Mike]

I always seat and crimp in separate operations, and I use a taper crimp die for 38/357 as it’s much kinder to the brass and gives a more uniform neck tension when the cases aren’t exactly the same length.

I have some cases I’ve been reloading over and over since the 1980s.

Nickel plated cases occasionally have issues with longitudinal cracking (very light target loads) but the brass cases seem to hold up better. But I can’t really complain…

 

[rwsmith]

Could.....

..Thicker cartridge case walls be a factor???

 

[Rick H.]

Thanks for all the replies again. This issue really has me scratching my head. One must remember my set up for loading ammo for my Model 52 on my Hornady LNL progressive press was highly successful for many years until about a week ago. After a full week of messing with this problem, I took a day off from it and today went back to the bench. I took a look at each and every die paying super close attention to the seater. Nothing seemed out of sorts, so I started a test run. Out of 20 rounds 16 were absolutely perfect, but unfortunately 4 were not. I didn't get any lead shavings or rings this time, but on each of the 4 bad rounds the bullet failed to seat completely into the case. They were about .020" to .030" high of the case mouth. The 16 good rounds were all loaded just below flush. I am now flaring the shells just enough to gain entry into the seating die body which isn't much to be honest, perhaps .003" to .004" Anymore than that and the seater die body collapses the flare to that amount. If I increase seating depth to eliminate the high seated bullets then my other bullets are seated quite low or at least lower than I like.

Could it be that the Hornady LNL progressive press has gone bonkers on me? I suppose anything is possible as the press is a first generation model. I am still waiting for my new Redding seater die. In the meantime I am going to transfer all my .38 Special dies over to my Redding turret press and see what happens. If each and every cartridge turns out in correct form then I will know where the problem stems from. My only gripe doing this is that it is so slow reloading on what is basically a single stage press with a rotating tool head. On-ward and up-ward as they say. Thanks again for the replies.

Rick H.

 

[Grayfox]

I've found that the 52 can be real touchy about case length. I trim all my Model 52 cases to the minimum length and they work perfectly.

 

[Doriangray6]

Have you checked the diameter of the bullets? I had that problem with a box of cast 38spl bullets and found that quite a few were oversize. Contacted the company, apparently I wasn't the only customer to do so, and was told that it was due to a change of casting equipment and they had already found and corrected the problem but unfortunately a few boxes of incorrectly sized bullets had gotten through before they got the bugs worked out.
They offered to send me a new box of bullets free of charge but I told them I had a 38 caliber sizing die and had already taken care of the problem.
Since then I've gotten a couple more boxes of bullets from them with no problems.

 

[zeke]

Am using Redding comp seater dies for most pistol rounds, jacketed and cast. They need occasional taking apart and cleaning when using lubed cast bullets. Also used to clean regular seating dies when using cast bullets. Hdy swaged bullets can get messy.

During a brief foray into 148 swaged dewc 38 special loading, favored using Rem cases due to their thinness and lack of elasticity. The same characteristics that disfavored them for other calibers.

 

[Rick H.]

Yesterday 01/30 I made a couple of interesting discoveries. Many of my issues involve seating bullets in S&B cases with the high crimp ring going completely around the case top. Very noticeable resistance in my expansion die using these cases causing a 2-step action in handle pull effort. I am going to cease using these cases as of today.

Secondly, today I received my "new" Redding Competition bullet seater. Last night I cleaned the new die and set it up in my turret press to see how it worked. I only loaded 10 cartridges, but experienced no issues with any of them. First time this has happened since this problem cropped up. No shaved lead, no rings of lead and all bullets were seated properly. I am now using a Lee M-style case expander which seems to work much better than my old Redding case expander or the Hornady case expander. How these newly loaded cartridges shoot is yet to be seen, but I have hope they will do just fine.

What bothers me is what could possibly be different between my old Redding Competition die and the new one? Everything on outward inspection appears identical. The old die is clean and the seating stem is identical on both. Obviously 10 cartridges doesn't mean the problem has been completely eliminated, but it gives me hope that it is. I will load a full box of cartridges today on the turret press and if all goes well I will transfer the dies to my Hornady AP press to see what happens. Results to follow....

Rick H.