Legality of aftermarket trigger parts

In 35 years of shooting I have not come across a hand gun with a 20 lb trigger pull.

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Fist one that comes to mind is a Nagant revolver. If I remember correctly, the DA pull is around 20lbs and the SA is around 12lbs. Surplus revolver yes, but still in the category.

1st Gen Sigma was close to 20 lbs ! Worst trigger in the last 25 years .

We're talking about lawyers here, and you guys are trying to bring common sense into the picture???

OJ Simpson walked. Where was the common sense there?

I could see a snake, um, I mean, prosecutor, bring up the fact that you had a 4lb trigger. And he'd mention that the factory had originally installed a 10lb trigger. He'd show that police use a 10lb trigger. He'd demonstrate the feel of a 10lb trigger. He'd bring up history and events pertaining to the 10lb trigger and why it was determined by S&W or whoever to make the trigger a 10lb pull.

Then he'd show how a 4lb trigger requires almost 1/3rd of the force to fire the gun. He'd show that in a high stress situation that your finger may inadvertently stray to the trigger. He'd have psychoanalysts with graphs and charts explain the human reaction to stress, and prove that under stress your body may not operate exactly as you have trained for years. He'd explain heart rate and tunnel vision and twitchy muscles and short term memory loss.... He may even show examples of people under stress trying to gauge how hard they are pulling on a trigger...

All he really has to do is put some doubt in the minds of 12 soccer moms and convince them that you have a million dollars in insurance that will cover this very type of 'accident' that came about because you modified your trigger pull to make it 'easier' for you to shoot your gun, regardless of what the manufacturer has determined is a safe amount of force required to operate the gun.

Maybe the soccer moms decide to make everyone happy and award the plaintiff half a million thinking your insurance will pay it so nobody really loses.... But in reality you just lost a civil case, opened yourself up for more lawsuits and probably can't carry a gun or get insurance.

And you don't think this can happen in America?

You make a good point about how a lawyer can manipulate something to their advantage, but it still comes down to deliberately pulling the trigger in self defense in fear of one's own life and/or the life of their family, not an accidental discharge.

This is why one of the better firearm rules to remember is to keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire. Grant it, competition style pulls should be kept on competition guns but a 4lb or above trigger pull is far from it and is at the beginning of a duty pull weight.

Lost Lake said:

The key is

Does it give the other attorney anything at all to try and turn the jury against you?

Think of it this way, the prosecutor could spend an extra 2 days because you modified your gun. He could go after the 'accidental' shooting because you lightened your trigger, he could go after the 'careless shooter', he could go after the 'reckless man who knows more than the manufacturer'.

Either way, when lawyers spend time discussing your case, it costs you a LOT of money.

I believe it is best to leave it stock or have the factory modify it. I also took the mag safety out of one of my carry guns, so I'm not as clean as I could be.

Do any cops lighten their triggers? Will their departments authorize it?

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I was a sworn Deputy Sheriff in Jackson County Oregon.
Our SOP's authorized 3.5Lbs triggers. Mostly to accommodate 1911's and 3.5 Lbs Glocks. After market 3.5 Lbs triggers installed by department authorized gunsmiths were also permitted.

We were a very "gunny" department however. I believe the first in the state to pull shotguns from cars and replace them with AR's about 25 years ago. Glock's were issued, but most any high quality firearm was blessed upon request. I sometimes qualified with a Wilson Combat as one of my two off duty's that had a 3.5Lbs trigger.

Emory

P&R Fan said:

There is nothing in the law, as far as I know, that says you have to have a certain trigger pull weight.
Jim

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Massachusetts does impose such a thing on new firearms. In NY we are not allowed to modify our duty firearms or batons. My Department, at least.

Thread has significantly expanded from legality of aftermarket triggers to civil court defenses about negligent discharges. Some suggestions may advance this thread.

1. Hire a better lawyer than the other guy
2 Keep you finger off the trigger unless you face a real threat.
3. Keep a stock 20lb trigger on your gun to avoid ND. would be a good idea to have your trigger altered to at least 20 lbs.. Best not alter anything on you gun. Keep factory sights , grips springs, never ever put a light or laser on your handgun. Extension of the premise that making alterations could increase your liability.
4. Live in a state that is not a may issue state.
5. In a criminal trial the burden of proof lies with the prosecution not the defense. Which is you. See item 1.
6. Never ever double tap. The second shot would open you up to being accused of being a blood thirsty psycopath.
7 Never carry more than one round in your gun.
8. Never carry a gun without at least 3 manual safetys.
9. Never have a round chambered.
10. Just don't carry a gun.

If you follow all of the above chances are you will never be prosecuted or sued but you may be dead.

Talk about chicken little. Peace out!


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While I appreciate sarcasm as much as the next guy, let's go over some of these points rationally....

texas48 said:

Thread has significantly expanded from legality of aftermarket triggers to civil court defenses about negligent discharges. Actually the topic is exactly the same. If it isn't legal you have to answer in court.

Some suggestions may advance this thread.

1. Hire a better lawyer than the other guy The 'other guy' probably is the state or county, or could be the family with a lawyer working for a cut of the pie. If you lose 10 million, he may get $3M or more. That kind of money can bring a pretty good lawyer against you! Or if he is a state prosecutor, he may have resources you could only DREAM of having. That costs money. So hire a good lawyer? Sure, but expect to pay a MINIMUM of $200K.
2 Keep you finger off the trigger unless you face a real threat. Under stress people do things they don't know they are doing. I saw a guy shoot five times into the ground at his feet when a deer stepped in front of him.
3. Keep a stock 20lb trigger on your gun to avoid ND. would be a good idea to have your trigger altered to at least 20 lbs.. Best not alter anything on you gun. Keep factory sights , grips springs, never ever put a light or laser on your handgun. Extension of the premise that making alterations could increase your liability. True, any changes could be brought up in court. Your choice.
4. Live in a state that is not a may issue state.
5. In a criminal trial the burden of proof lies with the prosecution not the defense. Which is you. See item 1. If this were only true. Remember George Zimmerman? How many people believed he was guilty for the first couple of days? In a civil trial this is even less so.
6. Never ever double tap. The second shot would open you up to being accused of being a blood thirsty psycopath. This has happened many times. A good defense is that is how you are trained, shoot twice then look. But many guys have gone to jail for the second or third shot.
7 Never carry more than one round in your gun.
8. Never carry a gun without at least 3 manual safetys.
9. Never have a round chambered.
10. Just don't carry a gun.

If you follow all of the above chances are you will never be prosecuted or sued but you may be dead. Even following everything here doesn't guarantee you won't be sued. It's an odd world and now that asbestos isn't such a big deal we have lawyers available to sue you for anything!

Talk about chicken little. Peace out!


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I'm under the impression that if I'm forced to pull my weapon to defend life and limb, then I have every intention of using deadly force and pull the trigger. I don't wish or desire to hurt anyone at any time, however if I am put into that situation by someone who intends to do me harm then that person has brought the results of his actions on himself. End result, I'm going home at the end of the day and dead bad guys don't tell stories in court.

As far as modified triggers are concerned, I have upgraded all my M&P firearms except the 22lr with Apex Tactical components. I use them for sports shooting, home defense, ccw, and on standby for the potential zombie invasion.

Most shooters are taught that until you acquire your target your finger remains on the slide. Your finger does not go onto the trigger until you have the intent to shoot. I also understand that anything can and could happen in the heat of the moment and yes some shooter may have an AD. The lawyers can talk all day over this, but again when it comes down to it...

The bad guy put himself in a situation and created his own results.

Just my two cents...

S&W M&P FS 9/357/40/40PRO/22LR

I was told in more than one class I've took to keep your carry gun stock and NEVER carry re-loads. ALWAYS carry/use same ammo as local LEO's. And,if you have to shoot. Shoot to kill.

Like lost Lake said. Be prepaired to be "eatin' alive in court", spend HUGE $$$$ and also realize your life will never be the same. And those famous last words over and over from mommy & family "he was such a nice ......" reguardless of how bad a dirt bag they actually were.

Maddmax said:

I was told in more than one class I've took to keep your carry gun stock and NEVER carry re-loads. ALWAYS carry/use same ammo as local LEO's.....

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This myth brought to you by the makers of over-hyped, over-priced SD ammo.

And here is the link to take this discussion further.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/249985-serious-court-warranty-question-reloads.html

I think more emphasis will be given on the legitimacy of the shoot than on the hardware. If the poor dumbass were running away carrying your TV and you ran him down and blew his head off the DA will use very trick at his disposal. DA's don't care about justice..only conviction rates. You. Old always make the case the new trigger was to make you a more efficient shooter and therefore less apt to shoot an innocent person. If you want a trigger job....I say do...and the hell with them!

I know of no instructor that advocates shoot to kill.......... nor do I teach that philosophy in any class I am certified to teach.

If things have deteriorated to the point that firing is inevitable...you fire until the confrontation is stopped.

Randy

PS. The whole "DO NOT USE RELOADS" has been flogged and beaten to death a gazillion times.

If the trigger is too light, you may be held liable if an accidental discharge occurs. Too light, in an handgun, might be under 3 pounds.

In a self-defense situation, the difference between accidental and intentional discharge may hinge on your statements to the police after the shooting. A justifiable homicide is, by definition, an intentional event. If, in an attempt to show you are not a "bloodthirsty killer," you blurt out something to the effect you didn't intend to shoot, you may be charged with manslaughter, or even murder. What to say and when should be part of your training.

A cocked revolver has a very light trigger pull, usually 2.5# or less. It also takes time to cock the pistol in what is presumed to be life-or-death situation. You would probably be charged based on one or both facts. At least one notorious event caused a policeman to be charged after holding a suspect at bay with a cocked revolver (per Ayoob).

A light pistol trigger may lead to doubling, depending on the length of reset. A 2# trigger in a short reset SIG might end with the gun pointing toward the ceiling with an empty magazine, you wearing a surprised look.

Even on the shooting range, it takes discipline to handle a light trigger pull, so that it doesn't fire prematurely. That's especially true after firing a service pistol, as I've found shooting a High Standard .22 Citation, with a 2# trigger. Nothing dangerous, but seriously outside the main group.

The problem doesn't go away when you win the trial for criminal charges brought by the DA, and it's possibly more likely that you will lose a civil case if plaintif's lawyer(the deceased's crying family,wife, kids, momma) can prove to the jury you meant for the victim to die (yes we know you would be the victim but they will turn the facts against you,) and they will press the issue that you intended to kill by using special handloaded killer bullets, and had special custom killer trigger job's done to make your gun a more efficient killing machine, maybe im paranoid, but i can get the job done with a factory gun just as well as custom trigger and factory ammo works just fine, why take the chance. ive worked hard all my life and i sure dont want to hand it all over to some thugs baby momma.

blujax01 said:

This myth brought to you by the makers of over-hyped, over-priced SD ammo.

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NOT even close. Our LEO's carry store bought ammo.

growr said:

I know of no instructor that advocates shoot to kill.......... nor do I teach that philosophy in any class I am certified to teach.

If things have deteriorated to the point that firing is inevitable...you fire until the confrontation is stopped.

Randy

PS. The whole "DO NOT USE RELOADS" has been flogged and beaten to death a gazillion times.

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In points #1 & #2 what's the difference ?

Point #1. In a situation you are at the point of no return and are forced to draw your weapon to protect yourself/family and don't ? Why are you even carring a weapon?

Point#2. If "you fire until the confrontation is stopped" ???? You are either shooting to kill or a bad shot.

I was told by more than one Lawer, reloads show intent and DON'T work in your faver in court.

smokey said:

The problem doesn't go away when you win the trial for criminal charges brought by the DA, and it's possibly more likely that you will lose a civil case if plaintif's lawyer(the deceased's crying family,wife, kids, momma) can prove to the jury you meant for the victim to die (yes we know you would be the victim but they will turn the facts against you,) and they will press the issue that you intended to kill by using special handloaded killer bullets, and had special custom killer trigger job's done to make your gun a more efficient killing machine, maybe im paranoid, but i can get the job done with a factory gun just as well as custom trigger and factory ammo works just fine, why take the chance. ive worked hard all my life and i sure dont want to hand it all over to some thugs baby momma.

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EXACTLY !!! And even if you win the civil case it will still cost you more $$$ and that's on top of what you already spend on the other trial.