Legality of aftermarket trigger parts

+1 for G Conway and Edd H - if you intended to pull the trigger then who cares if your trigger was smooth, light or in any other manner made to function as to give you a reliable trigger pull thereby increasing your accuracy. IF you had an AD - then you have opened the door. I know of more AD's with a Glock by LE than with any other firearms combined.

hair-trigger - Its underlying meaning is something that may be triggered with the pressure of something as slight as a hair. Got one of these?
 
growr said:
It seems we are giving far too much credit to attorneys here...

I know here in Montana the first thing the DA is going to do is strip the gun down and see if any after market parts are in the gun...............


(and then order a set for themselves)

Randy
Click to expand...

Same thing probably would happen here in Texas.
 
Don't see any responses to my earlier question regarding the pull weight of a cocked and locked 1911 SA trigger. Seems no one wants to answer that one.
All those on this thread screaming that a DA only trigger that is modified from 6 to 4 lbs are going to be immediately incarcerated and you will be someone's girl friend at state prison.
I'll bet that Clinton Smith carriers a 1911 pistol with a SA trigger at 3 lbs or less. In fact Clinton Smith disdained plastic striker fired pistols in articles that he has authored that I have read. Huge proponent of 1911 handguns. I could be wrong.
 
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The question is not to the weight or smoothness of a trigger, it is, did the shooter modify it incorrectly thus creating a situation where something resulted that should not have? Posted in this forum in the last couple of days were at least two different members that had put in aftermarket trigger parts in their M&P's that they stated caused a second unplanned discharge on the recovery shot. Shooter error maybe, but I would like to be the lawyer in a case like that. As a RSO and bullseye competitor, I have seen two 1911's either go full auto or double fire in the hands of champion bullseye shooters. Parts failures or touchy triggers, the law may not care. I am not trying to start an argument or stop people from buying aftermarket parts. As I stated, I have far more guns with trigger work than not. I am just asking what can happen. Maybe the people that can answer this question best are, Apex, Powder River, Springer, or Volquartzen.
 
texas48 said:
Don't see any responses to my earlier question regarding the pull weight of a cocked and locked 1911 SA trigger. Seems no one wants to answer that one.
All those on this thread screaming that a DA only trigger that is modified from 6 to 4 lbs are going to be immediately incarcerated and you will be someone's girl friend at state prison.
I'll bet that Clinton Smith carriers a 1911 pistol with a SA trigger at 3 lbs or less. In fact Clinton Smith disdained plastic striker fired pistols in articles that he has authored that I have read. Huge proponent of 1911 handguns. I could be wrong.
Click to expand...

Depends on the manufacture and model, but the average is around 5-6 pounds. I agree and mentioned the SA pull on a 1911 and a DAO pull on others guns in my earlier posts. Stock trigger pull weights can vary from 3-20 pounds +/- on many guns.

From an earlier poster talking about a trial that involved a sawed off shotgun. Not only was the guy in possession of a firearm when he wasn't suppose to be, but the modification done to the shotgun was illegal since he had no stamp to do so. Smoothing out or lightening a trigger pull slightly is not illegal , possessing an illegal NFA item when your not suppose to have a firearm in the first place sure is though.
 
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texas48 said:
Don't see any responses to my earlier question regarding the pull weight of a cocked and locked 1911 SA trigger. Seems no one wants to answer that one.
Click to expand...


Honestly, its an apples to oranges comparison... The 1911 is a totally different design and has other safety features (thumb, grip safeties). You are also comparing design differences to "home brew mods". Sorry, not the same thing. BTW, my 1911s have stock triggers too. ;)

In most cases, I seriously doubt trigger mods will cause legal issues in the aftermath of a justified defensive shooting. They could though, and the stock M&P trigger is plenty good enough for a defensive pistol for the majority of users.
 
The key is

Does it give the other attorney anything at all to try and turn the jury against you?

Think of it this way, the prosecutor could spend an extra 2 days because you modified your gun. He could go after the 'accidental' shooting because you lightened your trigger, he could go after the 'careless shooter', he could go after the 'reckless man who knows more than the manufacturer'.

Either way, when lawyers spend time discussing your case, it costs you a LOT of money.

I believe it is best to leave it stock or have the factory modify it. I also took the mag safety out of one of my carry guns, so I'm not as clean as I could be.

Do any cops lighten their triggers? Will their departments authorize it?
 
I guess none of you guys have had the pleasure of living in the People's Republic of Massachusetts where all of our newer guns come with 10+ lbs triggers.
 
I will say again 4 to 4.5 lb triggers are hardly hair triggers or considered a competition race gun.

After market parts like the Apex hard sear and UTB took my Shield from 6.8 lbs to 4.3 lbs. Apex springs took my j frame from 11.7 lbs to 7.9 lbs.. Both mods improve accuracy.My Glocks are at 4.4 4.6 and 4.5 lbs. With 3.5 rocket connectors and polished internals and a 6lb striker spring.
I would not carry my shield or any firearm that I have not completely tested with at least 300 to 500 rounds thru it and over 150 on rapid fire mode.

In my opinion 1st shot accuracy is paramount in SD situation and knowing what the capabilities of yourself and the weapon will do.

The effect of Adrenaline dump in a critical situation varies with each individual and know one knows what the effect will be in any situation.

In 35 years of shooting I have not come across a hand gun with a 20 lb trigger pull. I would not carry that gun because in my opinion It would be more dangerous to fire a handgun with that extreme a trigger pull than one with a 4 lb. Trigger, Simply due to the inherent in accuracy that would result for most shooters with that heavy a pull for all but the most accomplished shooters. My shield has 3 mechanical safeties so I don't buy the apples and oranges comparing a 1911 vs striker fired weapons in an SD situations.

We have been taking about trigger weights and moded guns here. Most 1911's In SA mode I have fired have a pull of under 4 pounds. The heaviest I have encountered was my issue 1911 I was issued in the military. For what its worth I was a RS NCO for more than 3 years and small arms repair specialist while serving in the military.

As for the remark on the NFA shot gun nothing I posted suggested a less than legal 18.5 inch barrel.

I will reitterate that a DA's political motivations and the handgun LAWS in the STATE where you live have more to do with the potential liabilities you face than the modification of your firearm with a justifiable shoot.

Stopping a threat with the fewest shots fired is the highest priority one should have in a SD situation , not worrying of what caliber, trigger weight , what sights you use (laser , night sights) you have available. If you have to worry about anything it should be if you are using a weapon to stop an uninstigated threat SD soon as possible.

I pity those who live in places a criminals rights are more important than our constitutional rights and the God given right to protect ourselves and our loved ones from those that would do us harm.

I pray that I never have to use my weapon for that purpose.


Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
 
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As many above have said it's not an issue of legality, it's an issue of credibility and intent in court.

If it's alleged to be an accidental shooting, you could have problems if you lightened the trigger. If the gun is altered in such a way (various and up to interpretation) that it makes it easier for the opposing council to paint you as a vigilante or mall ninja, you could have problems.

If your simply smoothing out the trigger and lightening it to a "reasonable degree" I don't see how it could come into play.

My personal preference is to have a heavier, yet smooth trigger on my carry gun. But if I was in a situation where I needed to defend myself, and all I had was my competition M&P with me, I wouldn't have any concern defending that in court.
 
In 35 years of shooting I have not come across a hand gun with a 20 lb trigger pull.
Click to expand...

Fist one that comes to mind is a Nagant revolver. If I remember correctly, the DA pull is around 20lbs and the SA is around 12lbs. Surplus revolver yes, but still in the category.
 
We're talking about lawyers here, and you guys are trying to bring common sense into the picture??? :D

OJ Simpson walked. Where was the common sense there?

I could see a snake, um, I mean, prosecutor, bring up the fact that you had a 4lb trigger. And he'd mention that the factory had originally installed a 10lb trigger. He'd show that police use a 10lb trigger. He'd demonstrate the feel of a 10lb trigger. He'd bring up history and events pertaining to the 10lb trigger and why it was determined by S&W or whoever to make the trigger a 10lb pull.

Then he'd show how a 4lb trigger requires almost 1/3rd of the force to fire the gun. He'd show that in a high stress situation that your finger may inadvertently stray to the trigger. He'd have psychoanalysts with graphs and charts explain the human reaction to stress, and prove that under stress your body may not operate exactly as you have trained for years. He'd explain heart rate and tunnel vision and twitchy muscles and short term memory loss.... He may even show examples of people under stress trying to gauge how hard they are pulling on a trigger...

All he really has to do is put some doubt in the minds of 12 soccer moms and convince them that you have a million dollars in insurance that will cover this very type of 'accident' that came about because you modified your trigger pull to make it 'easier' for you to shoot your gun, regardless of what the manufacturer has determined is a safe amount of force required to operate the gun.

Maybe the soccer moms decide to make everyone happy and award the plaintiff half a million thinking your insurance will pay it so nobody really loses.... But in reality you just lost a civil case, opened yourself up for more lawsuits and probably can't carry a gun or get insurance.

And you don't think this can happen in America? :confused:
 
You make a good point about how a lawyer can manipulate something to their advantage, but it still comes down to deliberately pulling the trigger in self defense in fear of one's own life and/or the life of their family, not an accidental discharge.

This is why one of the better firearm rules to remember is to keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to fire. Grant it, competition style pulls should be kept on competition guns but a 4lb or above trigger pull is far from it and is at the beginning of a duty pull weight.
 
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Lost Lake said:
The key is

Does it give the other attorney anything at all to try and turn the jury against you?

Think of it this way, the prosecutor could spend an extra 2 days because you modified your gun. He could go after the 'accidental' shooting because you lightened your trigger, he could go after the 'careless shooter', he could go after the 'reckless man who knows more than the manufacturer'.

Either way, when lawyers spend time discussing your case, it costs you a LOT of money.

I believe it is best to leave it stock or have the factory modify it. I also took the mag safety out of one of my carry guns, so I'm not as clean as I could be.

Do any cops lighten their triggers? Will their departments authorize it?
Click to expand...

I was a sworn Deputy Sheriff in Jackson County Oregon.
Our SOP's authorized 3.5Lbs triggers. Mostly to accommodate 1911's and 3.5 Lbs Glocks. After market 3.5 Lbs triggers installed by department authorized gunsmiths were also permitted.

We were a very "gunny" department however. I believe the first in the state to pull shotguns from cars and replace them with AR's about 25 years ago. Glock's were issued, but most any high quality firearm was blessed upon request. I sometimes qualified with a Wilson Combat as one of my two off duty's that had a 3.5Lbs trigger.

Emory
 
P&R Fan said:
There is nothing in the law, as far as I know, that says you have to have a certain trigger pull weight.
Jim
Click to expand...

Massachusetts does impose such a thing on new firearms. In NY we are not allowed to modify our duty firearms or batons. My Department, at least.
 
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Thread has significantly expanded from legality of aftermarket triggers to civil court defenses about negligent discharges. Some suggestions may advance this thread.

1. Hire a better lawyer than the other guy
2 Keep you finger off the trigger unless you face a real threat.
3. Keep a stock 20lb trigger on your gun to avoid ND. would be a good idea to have your trigger altered to at least 20 lbs.. Best not alter anything on you gun. Keep factory sights , grips springs, never ever put a light or laser on your handgun. Extension of the premise that making alterations could increase your liability.
4. Live in a state that is not a may issue state.
5. In a criminal trial the burden of proof lies with the prosecution not the defense. Which is you. See item 1.
6. Never ever double tap. The second shot would open you up to being accused of being a blood thirsty psycopath.
7 Never carry more than one round in your gun.
8. Never carry a gun without at least 3 manual safetys.
9. Never have a round chambered.
10. Just don't carry a gun.

If you follow all of the above chances are you will never be prosecuted or sued but you may be dead.

Talk about chicken little. Peace out!


Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
 
While I appreciate sarcasm as much as the next guy, let's go over some of these points rationally....


texas48 said:
Thread has significantly expanded from legality of aftermarket triggers to civil court defenses about negligent discharges. Actually the topic is exactly the same. If it isn't legal you have to answer in court.

Some suggestions may advance this thread.

1. Hire a better lawyer than the other guy The 'other guy' probably is the state or county, or could be the family with a lawyer working for a cut of the pie. If you lose 10 million, he may get $3M or more. That kind of money can bring a pretty good lawyer against you! Or if he is a state prosecutor, he may have resources you could only DREAM of having. That costs money. So hire a good lawyer? Sure, but expect to pay a MINIMUM of $200K.
2 Keep you finger off the trigger unless you face a real threat. Under stress people do things they don't know they are doing. I saw a guy shoot five times into the ground at his feet when a deer stepped in front of him.
3. Keep a stock 20lb trigger on your gun to avoid ND. would be a good idea to have your trigger altered to at least 20 lbs.. Best not alter anything on you gun. Keep factory sights , grips springs, never ever put a light or laser on your handgun. Extension of the premise that making alterations could increase your liability. True, any changes could be brought up in court. Your choice.
4. Live in a state that is not a may issue state.
5. In a criminal trial the burden of proof lies with the prosecution not the defense. Which is you. See item 1. If this were only true. Remember George Zimmerman? How many people believed he was guilty for the first couple of days? In a civil trial this is even less so.
6. Never ever double tap. The second shot would open you up to being accused of being a blood thirsty psycopath. This has happened many times. A good defense is that is how you are trained, shoot twice then look. But many guys have gone to jail for the second or third shot.
7 Never carry more than one round in your gun.
8. Never carry a gun without at least 3 manual safetys.
9. Never have a round chambered.
10. Just don't carry a gun.

If you follow all of the above chances are you will never be prosecuted or sued but you may be dead. Even following everything here doesn't guarantee you won't be sued. It's an odd world and now that asbestos isn't such a big deal we have lawyers available to sue you for anything!

Talk about chicken little. Peace out!


Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
 
I'm under the impression that if I'm forced to pull my weapon to defend life and limb, then I have every intention of using deadly force and pull the trigger. I don't wish or desire to hurt anyone at any time, however if I am put into that situation by someone who intends to do me harm then that person has brought the results of his actions on himself. End result, I'm going home at the end of the day and dead bad guys don't tell stories in court.

As far as modified triggers are concerned, I have upgraded all my M&P firearms except the 22lr with Apex Tactical components. I use them for sports shooting, home defense, ccw, and on standby for the potential zombie invasion.

Most shooters are taught that until you acquire your target your finger remains on the slide. Your finger does not go onto the trigger until you have the intent to shoot. I also understand that anything can and could happen in the heat of the moment and yes some shooter may have an AD. The lawyers can talk all day over this, but again when it comes down to it...

The bad guy put himself in a situation and created his own results.

Just my two cents...

S&W M&P FS 9/357/40/40PRO/22LR
 
I was told in more than one class I've took to keep your carry gun stock and NEVER carry re-loads. ALWAYS carry/use same ammo as local LEO's. And,if you have to shoot. Shoot to kill.

Like lost Lake said. Be prepaired to be "eatin' alive in court", spend HUGE $$$$ and also realize your life will never be the same. And those famous last words over and over from mommy & family "he was such a nice ......" reguardless of how bad a dirt bag they actually were.
 
I think more emphasis will be given on the legitimacy of the shoot than on the hardware. If the poor dumbass were running away carrying your TV and you ran him down and blew his head off the DA will use very trick at his disposal. DA's don't care about justice..only conviction rates. You. Old always make the case the new trigger was to make you a more efficient shooter and therefore less apt to shoot an innocent person. If you want a trigger job....I say do...and the hell with them!
 
I know of no instructor that advocates shoot to kill.......... nor do I teach that philosophy in any class I am certified to teach.

If things have deteriorated to the point that firing is inevitable...you fire until the confrontation is stopped.

Randy

PS. The whole "DO NOT USE RELOADS" has been flogged and beaten to death a gazillion times.
 
If the trigger is too light, you may be held liable if an accidental discharge occurs. Too light, in an handgun, might be under 3 pounds.

In a self-defense situation, the difference between accidental and intentional discharge may hinge on your statements to the police after the shooting. A justifiable homicide is, by definition, an intentional event. If, in an attempt to show you are not a "bloodthirsty killer," you blurt out something to the effect you didn't intend to shoot, you may be charged with manslaughter, or even murder. What to say and when should be part of your training.

A cocked revolver has a very light trigger pull, usually 2.5# or less. It also takes time to cock the pistol in what is presumed to be life-or-death situation. You would probably be charged based on one or both facts. At least one notorious event caused a policeman to be charged after holding a suspect at bay with a cocked revolver (per Ayoob).

A light pistol trigger may lead to doubling, depending on the length of reset. A 2# trigger in a short reset SIG might end with the gun pointing toward the ceiling with an empty magazine, you wearing a surprised look.

Even on the shooting range, it takes discipline to handle a light trigger pull, so that it doesn't fire prematurely. That's especially true after firing a service pistol, as I've found shooting a High Standard .22 Citation, with a 2# trigger. Nothing dangerous, but seriously outside the main group.
 
The problem doesn't go away when you win the trial for criminal charges brought by the DA, and it's possibly more likely that you will lose a civil case if plaintif's lawyer(the deceased's crying family,wife, kids, momma) can prove to the jury you meant for the victim to die (yes we know you would be the victim but they will turn the facts against you,) and they will press the issue that you intended to kill by using special handloaded killer bullets, and had special custom killer trigger job's done to make your gun a more efficient killing machine, maybe im paranoid, but i can get the job done with a factory gun just as well as custom trigger and factory ammo works just fine, why take the chance. ive worked hard all my life and i sure dont want to hand it all over to some thugs baby momma.
 
growr said:
I know of no instructor that advocates shoot to kill.......... nor do I teach that philosophy in any class I am certified to teach.

If things have deteriorated to the point that firing is inevitable...you fire until the confrontation is stopped.

Randy

PS. The whole "DO NOT USE RELOADS" has been flogged and beaten to death a gazillion times.
Click to expand...

In points #1 & #2 what's the difference ?

Point #1. In a situation you are at the point of no return and are forced to draw your weapon to protect yourself/family and don't ? Why are you even carring a weapon?

Point#2. If "you fire until the confrontation is stopped" ???? You are either shooting to kill or a bad shot.

I was told by more than one Lawer, reloads show intent and DON'T work in your faver in court.
 
smokey said:
The problem doesn't go away when you win the trial for criminal charges brought by the DA, and it's possibly more likely that you will lose a civil case if plaintif's lawyer(the deceased's crying family,wife, kids, momma) can prove to the jury you meant for the victim to die (yes we know you would be the victim but they will turn the facts against you,) and they will press the issue that you intended to kill by using special handloaded killer bullets, and had special custom killer trigger job's done to make your gun a more efficient killing machine, maybe im paranoid, but i can get the job done with a factory gun just as well as custom trigger and factory ammo works just fine, why take the chance. ive worked hard all my life and i sure dont want to hand it all over to some thugs baby momma.
Click to expand...

EXACTLY !!! And even if you win the civil case it will still cost you more $$$ and that's on top of what you already spend on the other trial.
 
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