M&P laser sight suggestions

Maybe this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find any reference to it. I would like suggestions as to laser sights for the M&P 9mm. Thanks in advance.

If you decide to get the LaserMax product, it's ~$80 at Amazon through Fuddlepuck or a name similar. It shipped out Monday after I had ordered it over the weekend. The MSRP of that laser is $129.

I chose it because I didn't want to pay more for the Crimson Trace nor did I want the laser to be on whenever I gripped the pistol.

My only complaint so far is that the left-right push switch requires it be pushed to the right to turn it on (requiring left hand input). For once the left handed people have something better suited for them.

My Shield is still on order, so that is all I can say for now!

I think a laser on a self defense gun is a bad idea. If you absolutely have to have one, the Crimson Trace, or equivalent, is the only way to go.

If you have to manipulate an extra switch, it's completely useless. Doing anything other than putting your trigger finger on the trigger is just asking for trouble.

Crimson Trace CMR-201 Red Laser

Got one for my m&p9c. They're good for a variety of reasons, but you need to know their limitations. Crimson trace grips are going to be good for about a fist sized group at 30 ft(at least for the m&p9c that I have). The laser module isn't fixed to the frame, it's part of the removeable backstrap. Because of this, it changes an inch or two depending on how you are holding the gun. When I take the grip off and use irons, my groups shrink down considerably...but take a bit longer.

I will say a CT grip-LASER has advantages over rail-mounted LASER's. Most any existing holsters will continue to work after the LASER is installed on the gun. The activation is also intuitive, meaning you don't need to train to activate an additional switch.

Knowing that limitation, they give you lots of advantages.

1) dry-fire training:

Get some snap caps, and put the laser on something in the room(preferably somewhere with a "safe" backstop if the gun goes off for some freak reason). Light switches work well as a target. Practice drawing with eyes closed to see if the dot is on the same place when you open your eyes to find your natural point of aim when you punch out.

Once you find your natural point of aim, concentrate on trigger control. Whenever you break the trigger, see where the laser jumps. Keep working until you're able to drop on the snap cap without shifting the laser in any direction. The laser is much easier to read than calling your shots by watching the movement of the front sight post for a beginner.

2) Live-fire training

After ironing out most of your presentation and trigger issues with dry-fire, go to the range. The laser makes it VERY easy for a coach to spot what you're doing to ruin consistency. It's easy to see how your grip needs to be adjusted. When your shot breaks, you can look to see if the laser dips first(hints at poor trigger control). You can also watch to see if it jumps off to the right or to the left under recoil(hinting at uneven grip or a canted gun in your dominant hand/LOP issues). It should jump straight up and settle back down after recoil, before the next shot. Lasers can REALLLLLY help speed up your shooting if you know what to look for. They largely remove sight picture as a factor and allow the new shooter to concentrate on tactile fundamentals.

3) speed

Putting a red dot on something and pressing the trigger is VERY easy compared to more complex sight pictures with three dots, two dots, balls and buckets, or triangles. They have the same advantage here that red-dot micro reflex sight systems do. When any smoke or moisture is present, you can see a straight line from your gun to your backstop in the air. This effect seems to make it VERY fast for me to direct my muzzle to the target I want a hole in

4) Unconventional shooting positions

You don't need to see the front sight post. You just need to see downrange where the dot is. This allows you to do interesting things, like stay mostly behind cover and present just the gun(assuming you have some other vantage point to see the target from behind cover). If you're shooting supine or prone in close contact, Lasers allow you to have the gun down at holster/hip level and still make quick aimed shots.

5) more situational awareness

If you're in any kind of isosceles position with your upper body, or punched out in any kind of way, you lose lots of situational awareness. You essentially eliminate your view of anything from 8 o'clock to 4 o'clock because your arms and gun are blocking it. It's not entirely likely a threat will randomly pop up near your belly-button, but it is somewhat likely you'll miss that extra step or trip over that toy you didn't see. Traditionally, if you compress in to sul, or a compressed high ready, you regain this lost visual real-estate....but are just point-shooting without use of a sighting aid. A laser allows you to stay in a high compressed position and still make quick, aimed shots if needed right away.

Some drawbacks:

1) width
One of the reasons I chose the m&p9c was because of how easy it is to conceal. The crimson trace grip needs space for the batteries and a place for the laser module. The batteries aren't a big deal. They round the grip out a smidge on the sides and make it feel pretty comfortable. The module is a bigger deal. With it hanging off the side, it adds a considerable amount of width to the gun. It's still nothing that effects concealability all that much(most holsters I've found for the m&p are already swelled out where the laser module is anyway for easier reholstering and to allow a CT gripped m&p to fit without modification)

2) accuracy

I already talked about how the ct grips aren't exactly a pinpoint precision type of thing. They are more than adequate for defensive use. I've found that without question, I'm able to shoot tighter slowfire groupings with irons than with the laser. I have also found that when shooting the fastest controlled group I can, I'm able to shoot a roughly fist-sized group with the CT grip at 25 feet FASTER than I can shoot a roughly fist-sized group with irons. Once you are shooting fast enough, the advantage in how fast the sight is to pick up makes up for its reduction in precision over irons.

3) cost

The ct grips are usually $200-300. For that cost, you could buy your way into a decent defensive firearms class.


more pictures of the crimson trace on my m&p9c...
Here you can see that your trigger finger can be used to block the beam when it's naturally riding on the frame of the gun. With the LASER on, you don't HAVE to have it projecting out from your gun. You can readily hide the beam by doing this.


Here's a view of what the LASER would look like from downrange...


This picture shows what the spot looks like indoors with all the windows open on a sunny day AND the lights on. It's pretty easy to see quickly indoors.


I do wish that the activation switch on this particular lasergrip was further down on the grip. Being tucked away up where it is, you really need some isometric tension from something like a weaver grip/stance to put enough pressure on it to force hand meat up there.


here's a width comparison....

smokey0118,
That was a lucid and well thought out post. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

Even so, I still have issues with putting a laser on a defensive handgun. Allow me to address some of what you wrote.

For training, live and dry, with a qualified coach, yes, I agree. The laser can help diagnose some problems. However, a qualified coach should be able to diagnose those issues without the laser.

I don't believe the laser allows faster target acquisition. From the holster, at 7 yards, I can put two in center mass in under 2.3 seconds. I've never tested it with a laser, but I'd love the opportunity. I'll put the price of a decent lunch on it that a shooter, familiar with their gun, is not any faster with the laser. Even if they are, the speed increase will not be significant.

Unconventional shooting positions is the only time a laser has an advantage. If you're hiding behind cover and need to shoot without exposing your head, the laser is the only way. However, it is extremely unlikely that you'll be in a situation where you can see your target without exposing yourself anyway.



Here's the biggest beef with the laser; laziness. What happens all too often is shooters stop using their sights. This is always a bad idea. Bill Weaver proved that the increase in accuracy was worth the .2 seconds loss in time.

I've seen it a lot. A new shooter gets a laser and thinks they no longer need the sights. Not all, but it's quite common. This generally leads to less practice. That leads to poor shooting.

Shooting well is a perishable skill. You're right, the cost of the laser will buy you some quality instruction. That instruction will be worth 10 times the cost of the laser in the long run.

Crimson Trace makes a quality product. I had one and sold it. There was nothing wrong with it, I just realized that I didn't need it.

Rastoff said:

smokey0118,
That was a lucid and well thought out post. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

Even so, I still have issues with putting a laser on a defensive handgun. Allow me to address some of what you wrote.

For training, live and dry, with a qualified coach, yes, I agree. The laser can help diagnose some problems. However, a qualified coach should be able to diagnose those issues without the laser.

I don't believe the laser allows faster target acquisition. From the holster, at 7 yards, I can put two in center mass in under 2.3 seconds. I've never tested it with a laser, but I'd love the opportunity. I'll put the price of a decent lunch on it that a shooter, familiar with their gun, is not any faster with the laser. Even if they are, the speed increase will not be significant.

Unconventional shooting positions is the only time a laser has an advantage. If you're hiding behind cover and need to shoot without exposing your head, the laser is the only way. However, it is extremely unlikely that you'll be in a situation where you can see your target without exposing yourself anyway.



Here's the biggest beef with the laser; laziness. What happens all too often is shooters stop using their sights. This is always a bad idea. Bill Weaver proved that the increase in accuracy was worth the .2 seconds loss in time.

I've seen it a lot. A new shooter gets a laser and thinks they no longer need the sights. Not all, but it's quite common. This generally leads to less practice. That leads to poor shooting.

Shooting well is a perishable skill. You're right, the cost of the laser will buy you some quality instruction. That instruction will be worth 10 times the cost of the laser in the long run.

Crimson Trace makes a quality product. I had one and sold it. There was nothing wrong with it, I just realized that I didn't need it.

Click to expand...

Agreed, there's no gimmick that will be better than quality practice. Running my M&P9c with a LASER and without in some at-home IDPA stages, I'm picking up a little speed on aimed-shots...but there's not really any appreciable gain in speed when point-shooting is concerned. I do really like the ability to shoot from compressed positions though and from around cover/concealment.

Honestly, the main reason I tossed it on that particular gun was for my fiance. She doesn't shoot as often as me and the LASER makes up a bit for her lack of practice in sight-alignment. I've found LASERs make a bigger improvement in the shooting of people with less experience. In practice, she's fairly good when she's working slow, but under stress she still needs to fall back on the ct as a crutch. She's just not in to shooting as much as me. It's not her thing, but she's still interested in having something for defense.

I mainly use the ct for dry-fire snap-cap practice. Aiming at a small target, like a light switch(with a 3-d safe background for safety rules of course), from far away definitely amplifies the smallest of movement in the gun. If you've ever shot pistols with scopes on them, you've got an idea of the immediate bio-feedback it gives you. If I haven't had trigger time in a little bit, I'll get it in dry-fire practice and keep a lookout for where the dot moves as the trigger is pressed all the way to the rear, and back to reset.

If I'm at the range, I'm looking for it to jump straight up and settle back down to my natural aim-point on the target. It's especially useful when working on a flinch with a new shooter by tossing in some snap-caps randomly into the magazine.

My personal winter-carry and hd gun is my m&p45 with tlr1s. Again, there are pro's and con's to a light mounted on a handgun...I mainly prefer a separate handheld light, but like having the tlr1s there in a "two is one and one is none" mindset. It just gives me more options....that's another thread. I didn't go with it in some 9 v 45 thing, but just because I've found I shoot that particular gun the fastest and most accurately out of any defensive gun I have(surprisingly even beating out my p99AS I relied on for years). But that gun doesn't have a LASER and probably won't ever.

Jenni(fiance) doesn't shoot that one and I feel completely confident without a LASER on it. I just look a little harder at the front sight when I'm doing dry-fire. I still like the LASER on my m&p9c, but mostly for jenni's benefit and better practice for me. I don't feel I absolutely have to have it and if the batteries go down, I'm still completely comfortable using the front sight, or just point-shooting. ...and then there's the other thing...they're just cool.

I agree with both statements about Laser sights, still haven't made up my mind, but I had this sitting around from a pistol that I sold so I put it on for size. The thing I like is that it doesn't make the pistol any wider and the activation is manual (push on, push again and it's off) it doesn't really get in the way and still fits in the holster. Just another option

Bkreutz said:

I agree with both statements about Laser sights, still haven't made up my mind, but I had this sitting around from a pistol that I sold so I put it on for size. The thing I like is that it doesn't make the pistol any wider and the activation is manual (push on, push again and it's off) it doesn't really get in the way and still fits in the holster. Just another option

Click to expand...

Bkreutz, any issues with the rail screws backing out during a range session?

I have the same setup, but have not put any rounds downrange.

SW CQB 45 said:

Bkreutz, any issues with the rail screws backing out during a range session?

I have the same setup, but have not put any rounds downrange.

Click to expand...

I actually haven't shot this pistol with the laser, but I had it on a Taurus 24/7 that I shot a lot of ammo through it. (various loads) and didn't have a problem so I wouldn't expect any with this one. One thing I would change is that the screws are slotted pan head and I would prefer socket head but I suspect the socket head screws would stick out too far. The slotted screws are very shallow. I use a proper hollow ground blade to tighten it but I think one attempt with a standard screwdriver would bugger the slots forever.

Thanks all for the info. Good stuff.

OpticsPlanet

sharpshooterassassin said:

Crimson Trace CMR-201 Red Laser

Click to expand...

Has the CMR-201 right now for $109! Picking up two of them for myself.

bump for bassman07

I really like the crimson trace rail master it is very well made and works very well. Looks like it was made for the gun.

Due to the removable backstrap design of the M&P and the way the CT backstrap works, the Crimson Trace grip is far and away the best way to go with a laser for the M&P. Completely intuitive and user-friendly. I agree that a laser is not a substitute for good shooting fundamentals, but for wives, mothers, etc who are less likely to train, it gives a good, clear indication of where that bullet is going to go within 6" at inside distances. Furthermore, for those with poor eyesight, a laser replaces a difficult-to-see front sight, especially under low light conditions.

This is my personal HD M&P setup primarily for my wife...if simply investigating something strange, I'll take it through the house with me, but if there is an obvious threat, my wife keeps this in the bedroom with her and the kids while I take my SBR AR.

The DG switch on the Surefire light makes it so that the light and laser are instantaneously activated upon her gripping the weapon...simple. No switches or buttons to worry about pushing...target ID and aiming point ready to go...just press the trigger. Also keeps the support hand free for holding a child, phone, or opening a door too if need be.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/9889267613/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/87859750@N03/9889267613/ by ASH556, on Flickr

ASH556 said:

Due to the removable backstrap design of the M&P and the way the CT backstrap works, the Crimson Trace grip is far and away the best way to go with a laser for the M&P.

Click to expand...

Unless you're a lefty.

ASH556 said:

I agree that a laser is not a substitute for good shooting fundamentals, but for [anyone] who are less likely to train,...

Click to expand...

This statement is completely contradictory. Actually it is the foundation as to why I think lasers are questionable. They facilitate not training. The thought, "I don't have to aim because I just put the dot on the bad guy and it will hit him" is bad. It gives the impression that a person doesn't have to train/practice because the laser does all the work.

We both know that's not true.

Rastoff said:

Unless you're a lefty.

This statement is completely contradictory. Actually it is the foundation as to why I think lasers are questionable. They facilitate not training. The thought, "I don't have to aim because I just put the dot on the bad guy and it will hit him" is bad. It gives the impression that a person doesn't have to train/practice because the laser does all the work.

We both know that's not true.

Click to expand...

Okay, so I shouldn't give my mother and her aging eyes every advantage she can get, right? She struggles to see the front sight and so her groups with irons are about 6-8" at 7 yds, but with the laser, since she can see a clearly-defined aiming point, her groups shrink to 2" @ 7yds.

You're leaning way heavy into the no-laser ditch, man. Get back up in the middle of the road and realize that while not an absolute replacement for training (especially for a switched-on shooter) there are benefits, especially for those for whom guns are not a major lifestyle involvement. Yes, I take my mother to the range every 3-4 months to ensure she's still familiar with how to operate her handgun, but she's just not going to do daily draw and dryfire drills. Thus, the laser is a tool that provides a benefit.

CT Lasers

Well lard your question got me thinking about a frame mounted grim for my 586. Smokey's comment seem right on. I just bid on the model I need on Ebay and got it two hours later. I'll post a report after I get to the range and adjust it.

Thanks for starting the thread.

Joe

ASH556 said:

...her groups with irons are about 6-8" at 7 yds, but with the laser, since she can see a clearly-defined aiming point, her groups shrink to 2" @ 7yds.

Click to expand...

Wow, that's impressive improvement. Can she do that under pressure?

ASH556 said:

You're leaning way heavy into the no-laser ditch, man.

Click to expand...

Not leaning, I'm there.

Did you read my first post on this thread?

I'm not saying that lasers are the devil incarnate, they just aren't the solution most people think they are. Your mother's improvement is the exception not the norm. For weird positions and dry practice lasers are fantastic. For low light they are marginal. But, saying they are good for people who don't practice is a non starter. There is nothing that is a substitute for practice. If you want to use a laser, fine. That's your choice, but just be sure to practice with it. Those who fail to practice are practicing to fail.

I'm thinking of trying a laser because of my eyes. When I was younger, I was a fairly capable shot. Not like I could win any competitions or anything, but capable. As I get older, my near vision is getting worse. With nothing but clear glasses, I can't see the sights very well and when I focus down range on the target, the sights are quite blurry. If I put my reading glasses on, the sights were in focus but the target is blurry. At the range, for shooting glasses, I use my work Safety glasses which are Bi-Focals, clear on top and reading on the bottom. It took some getting used to, but I can do okay with them.

But we all know that in an emergency situation, I most likely will not have the time to get out my Bi-Focals and put them on.

The gun I was using had non removable fixed sights and they were black. I painted them yellow, and that helped a little. But, not enough. So I got the M&P Shield based on reviews and reports of it's reliability, it is similar in size to my old gun, but partly because if the 3 dot sights. They are a little easier to see even if they are blurry. And they are replaceable. I am looking at the various night sights trying to decide what I want.

But my thinking is this: In addition to the sights, If I could keep my focus downrange on both the target and the laser, of course keeping the sights in mind, maybe that would help?