+p+ in M&P 9 FS

Philadelphia Patriot

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Any body use any +p+ ammo in their M&P 9 FS or Compact? A buddy of mine gave me a box of 115 grain +p+ Speer Gold Dots. This would be more of a carry ammo than range use, so I'd probably only dump 10 rounds of it at the range and then save the rest for carry. The firearm I would carry this in would be the full sized M&P 9.
 
Page 18 in the owners manual............:eek:

“Plus-P-Plus” (+P+) ammunition must not be used in Smith &
Wesson firearms.
This marking on the ammunition designates that
it exceeds established industry standards, but the designation
does not represent defined pressure limits and therefore such
ammunition may vary significantly as to the pressures generated
and could be DANGEROUS.
 
Thankfully I shoot Glock 19 and 17. They are golden with a steady diet of +P+. Glocks are made to NATO Specs, they are standard issue in several NATO countries. Some NATO 9mm is +P+, so they are designed to digest it. :D
 
Thankfully I shoot Glock 19 and 17. They are golden with a steady diet of +P+. Glocks are made to NATO Specs, they are standard issue in several NATO countries. Some NATO 9mm is +P+, so they are designed to digest it. :D

"Can I use +P and +P+ ammunition?
Glock suggests using ammunition that is manufactured and meets SAAMI or industry specifications. If you are not sure the ammunition brand or type you choose is safe for use, call the ammunition manufacturer and ask if the product meets SAAMI guidelines before using it in you firearm. Some +P ammunition meets these guidelines, +P+ normally does not. This ammunition may generate a higher pressure over the standard loadings, and may shorten the component life of your firearm."

FAQ | GLOCK USA
 
What would be the purpose of loading a carry gun with +P+ over a proven standard pressure or +P round?
 
All foreign ammo is not produced to SAAMI specs. Some is notably hotter. European specs for ammo also allows for in many cases much higher pressures than does SAAMI. this includes NATO ammo. Why is this? Maybe partly because their are not as many greedy ambulance chasing lawyers in Europe eager to sue, and European liability laws tend to have a stricter burden of proof. Also firearms in Europe have to pass full power proof loads before they can be marketed. Not required in the U.S. In the U.S. avoiding lawsuits is of the greatest importance.
 
10 rounds is not enough on something unproven and you have to ask about. In particular when opinions differ so much.

Buying a fresh box of whatever you have put plenty of through your gun already is a small investment relatively speaking. A defensive tool is not something to speculate on, it's for peace of mind.
 
You be the judge

As with any decision on which ammo to use, one must always weigh the benefit vs. the risk.

The benefit of +P+ 9MM is supposedly increased velocity. This velocity might translate to increased terminal performance, such as greater depth of penetration of an expanded bullet through a body, or the ability to break through barriers like a windshield or car door. Police officers and military can use such penetration to their advantage, thus some commercial manufacturers market +P+ 9MM ammo as Law Enforcement (Only?). Does use of such ammo beat up a gun faster? There are tales of agencies signing gun manufacturers' warranty waivers, but I'm not personally familiar with that.

Since SAAMI does not have a pressure specification for +P+, a manufacturer can load such a round to any pressure they want. Interestingly, examination of different +P+ rounds rarely shows much if any increase in pressure. The designation has become more a marketing term for supposedly increased performance rather than increased pressure. Very few commercial manufacturers are willing to step outside of SAAMI specs because of the increased liability. +P+ loads may be at the upper end of SAAMI pressure allowances but they are touted for increased velocity. There ways to increase velocity marginally (different powders) without exceeding specified pressures. Hornady's Superformance line of rifle ammunition delivers up to 200 more fps without pressure increases--because of special powder blends.

Standard SAAMI 9MM pressure is 35,000 psi
SAAMI +P is 38,500 psi

Only .357 Sig (40K), 454 Casull (65K--you know that hurts!), and 480 Ruger (48K) are higher in common handgun loads.

Max Chamber Pressure - SAAMI Specs

So, how much increase in performance is there with +P+ ammo? Any increase in performance is not consistently noticeable because so many factors effect real world terminal performance. The standardized FBI protocol testing has not definitively proven +P+ to be better than high quality self defense loads at standard or +P SAAMI spec pressures.

As is always the case for terminal performance, shot placement, volume of hits and proper expansion and penetration of the bullets are the most important factors--not velocity or pressure. Heavy, slower bullets can be as effective as faster lighter bullets. Velocity is produced by pressure, granted, but with the multitude of variations of powders and loadings, the goal is not just increased pressure; it is consistent terminal performance.

Bullets designed to expand and penetrate 14" at 1,000 fps in ballistic gelatin may break apart if shot at 1,300 fps, or their petals may fold back, giving less frontal area with less wound channel damage and much greater (wasted) penetration. Trade-offs.

9MM Nato is a higher pressure round in part because the Europeans (and Israelis) used submachineguns with blowback actions (UZI, MP5) extensively for their military and police, typically with FMJ bullets for barrier penetration. They needed the extra pressure for reliable full auto cycling. Their method of measuring pressure is different than what we use in the US, so the resulting pressure differences are not apples-apples comparisons. I have fired both Israeli and European loaded rounds, and they are higher pressure with noticeably higher recoil than US ammunition. Many European manufacturers do load to US SAAMI specs for export, different than their NATO loadings.

It is true that Europeans require proof testing of their barrels and guns with ammunition loaded to pressures that are generally 15%-20% over maximum allowed loads. However, US manufacturers design and manufacture to similar standards for liability reasons, even though they are not required to proof every gun. European guns are not "stronger" than US manufactured guns. A European gun will blow up just as soon as a US manufactured gun when improperly loaded over pressure ammo is fired in it.

The risk of blowing up your gun, especially with a fully supported chamber as in the M&P 9MM, is very low with any (properly loaded) commercial US ammo. You may experience a little more wear on the gun, sooner, with higher pressure/velocity, harder recoiling ammo, but on a limited diet of such fodder the gun will hold up.

If the ammo you have is really above SAAMI pressure specs, do you want to deal with the increased muzzle blast, muzzle rise and recoil impulse in a self defense situation where firing very accurately and very fast means saving your life? I don't.

Check out the table at the bottom of this Wikipedia article. Interesting ammo comparisons. Note the terminal effects of the different loadings/bullets.
9×19mm Parabellum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The ATK/Speer LE Handgun ammunition website does not list pressures, just velocity and foot lbs of energy.

115 grn +P+ 1300 fps. with 432 ft lbs energy.

Standard velocity LE 115 grn is 1210 fps w/374 ft lbs.

+P 124 grn bullet at 1220 fps delivers 410 ft lbs.

Many states require minimum handgun bullet energy for big game hunting to be 500 ft lbs (more in some states) at 100 yards. Average self defense rounds come nowhere near this threshold, even at bad breath distances. That is why shot placement, expansion, penetration and volume of fire are key factors in a self defense shooting. A minor increase in velocity and energy is not a game changer.

If I can practice with economical 115 grain FMJ ammo that shoots very similarly to my 115 grn self defense load, I am probably going to be a better, more accurate, faster shooter, with less expense, and less wear and tear on my gun. I don't mind paying a premium price for good self defense ammo, but I don't want it to shoot substantially differently than how I train.

To me, searching for and buying and using +P+ ammo is a waste. You got some? Sell it and buy what you really need.

+P+ is not magic. It's marketing.
 
Thankfully I shoot Glock 19 and 17. They are golden with a steady diet of +P+. Glocks are made to NATO Specs, they are standard issue in several NATO countries. Some NATO 9mm is +P+, so they are designed to digest it. :D
Got some proof of what you say about NATO rounds? You should remember that NATO rounds are intended to be able to be used in a wide variety of manufacturer's guns. Thus, the +P+ designation is in direct contrast to that thinking. NATO does not equal Europe. It includes many countries.
 
OK, a little research shows that NATO 9mm rounds are analogous to 9mm +P. This means they are designed for a pressure of 36,000psi rather than the standard 35,000psi of normal 9mm ammo.

There is no industry standard for +P+ ammo. In fact, the designation simply means that it is over the pressure recommended for normal ammo. Thus, it might work in your gun, but I would never use it especially because you get no significant benefit.
 
I............think S&W knows just a tad more about guns/ammo than I do.

So again, NO TO +P+ unless your making one of those videos we see so many of these days.

Better you than me.........JMHO:D
 
I'm thinking that many of you that poo poo +P+ 9MM have never even bothered to shoot it let alone have any experience with it. I do. IT WON'T HURT YOUR FREAKING GUN!

AGAIN, police agencies across the nation that still use the 9MM issue +P AND +P+ ammo! I suppose you experts know more than they do! :rolleyes:

A little research never hurt anyone.;)

The Glock 17 was tested at 73,00 PSI and never missed a beat.
9MM +P max PSI is 38,500. 9MM +P+ isn't much more.

So what does that tell you?
 

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