Randy: You and Apex Tactical have done more for M&P owners, than any other ten companies combined. You won't release a product, until it's been thoroughly tested and proven. This means a lot to those of us that frequent this group and I would hope that the moderator(s) would make an allowance for this.
Please don't let one person, posting negative comments, ruin it for the rest of us. We love Apex.

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NRA R.S.O. & Life Member

I hope we would welcome people that actually know what they are talking abou.! We all go on and on talking about what we guess is going on then shut down the experts. This is not helpful.

Thanks Randy. I for one genuinely appreciate your clarifying the technical details of your potential future products, in particular the accuracy issues of the M&P Full Size 9.

I wish more aftermarket suppliers, and even Smith and Wesson itself, would participate more, but I understand it takes time away from product development.

Looking forward to hearing more about the barrels soon.

Respectfully, Rich

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Take your time, fast. J.Hughes

Randy, I too have benefited from your product and appreciate your participation here. My comment was more tongue in cheek than serious. Thanks for not being so thin skinned.

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Life Is A Gift. Defend it!

This one is easily answered; different guns.

The vast majority of "accuracy" issues are due to the shooter. You'll notice that when people ask about accuracy concerns, they always say, "Why does my gun shoot low," not, "Why am I shooting low."

The question Randy asked above has two answers. One is due to the quality of the gun/barrel build and how it's fitted together. The other is due to the shooter.

Whenever I read about a person's gun being inaccurate, I always ask if the gun was shot from a rest. 99% of the answers have been no. If you don't eliminate the human error, you can't ever know if the gun is having problems or not.

The most common M&P inaccuracy is shooting low and left. This comes from a right hand shooter who is standing, unsupported. The most common cause is due to trigger control. The M&P does not have a good trigger. Some shooters are able to overcome this and shoot relatively well. Many others install an Apex kit and see their shooting dramatically improve; I am one of those. In both cases, it still requires the shooter to work on their form.

Those who work on their form and improve with the M&P find they shoot all their guns better.

Now, remove the human error by using a rest and the true accuracy of the gun is found. It's this error that an improved barrel, properly fitted, will make a tremendous difference to.

I don't see this thread as a sales pitch. I hope we can continue.

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Freedom isn't free.

First, thank you all for your words of encouragement.

Rastoff, you raise very relevant points as there must be a distinction made between practical accuracy and mechanical accuracy. My knowledge base is within the realm of the mechanical accuracy since if the gun cannot demonstrate repeatable group sizes out of a mechanical rest (without human introduced error) the practical accuracy becomes a point of pure speculation. This is where I find most internet discussions end up. Lots of theories but no verifiable data.

I found it funny that there is very little information or data on results from the Ransom Rest for either the M&P or Glock on the Net. I think part of that is because the Ransom Rest sandwiches the polymer frame between two soft urethane pads. The polmer frames being plastic tend to shift between these pads. So much so that just pulling the slide to the rear to charge the gun will cause the point of aim to shift dramatically. So I expect that the results many were getting with the Ransom were not as positive as they had hoped.

In my mind, the only way to test mechanical accuracy is with a machine rest, so I had to come up with my own test procedures and fixtures to compensate for the shortcomings of the rest. Each shot fired also had to be individually sighted in on the target due to the slippage. I also believe that that is the way the end user would shott the pistol, so it made sense to use the slide mounted sights for each shot.

I concur Randy. The Ransom rest, or any similar rest, does have shortcomings, but they can be accounted for by technique.

In order to test mechanical accuracy, you must account for and eliminate as many variables as possible. Also, the item under test must be used as it would be used by the end user. So, the sights must be used to line up the gun. This has to be done immediately prior to the shot and after the gun is charged. Otherwise, the sights will move and disrupt the test.

Mount the gun in the vise. Rack a round into the chamber. Then set the sights on the intended target. This must be the same every time. In fact, it must be set by the same person every time to reduce the error in how the sights are used between people.

When the trigger is pulled, it must be consistent and in a manner that won't disturb the set up. If the trigger is jerked, you'll have the same issue a shooter would have; sights will move.

The main reason revolvers tend to be more accurate than auto-loading pistols is how the sights are mounted. Because the sights are mounted directly to the barrel, they will always be in exactly the same place. For an auto-loader, the sights are not mounted to the barrel. Any movement at all between the barrel and slide will add error to the shot-to-shot accuracy.

This is why modular pistols are less accurate than custom fit pistols. The added tolerance necessary for parts to just "drop in" makes the lock up less precise. Less precision in the lock up translates to less precision at the target.

I would love to get my hands on a Ransom rest and one of your new barrels. I think you have something special here.

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Freedom isn't free.

It only has to be fit on initial installation, after that the owner can pop the barrel out as normal. The fitted barrels are made intentionally too big and a gunsmith takes metal off the barrel to get the tightest possible fit and still have functionality.

The APEX fitted barrel is a little tighter than factory. But it comes out with a little push and goes in just as easy as the factory barrel. It does need to be lined up. So you don't start it sloppy with a little cant to the side. Otherwise just the same

Your question has a multi layered and complex answer- which is why there are so many discussions but so little repeatable solutions. I will try and explain what we found during the process of designing our barrel.

Polymer pistols are typically lighter weight than all steel and alloy framed guns. This is the interface between the shooter and all the things happening from the time you pick up the pistol through the firing cycle. Although it has been covered before, the frame on a full size M&P weighs about 7 ounces without a magazine, yet the trigger pull weight on a stock non PC model factory gun is roughly 6 lbs- that is 96 ounces. This means that a human shooter has to pull a trigger that is nearly 14 times the weight of the frame. This is where the human component can (and often does) introduce muscle input into the gun that affects the final position of the gun while the bullet is still in the barrel. All things being equal, unless the shooter has machine like control over how they press the trigger straight to the rear and hold the frame with consistent pressure inconsistencies will appear downrange.

I did not mention the slide assembly in this discussion because the substantially lighter frame reacts more quickly to changes in force and therefore position. This has a greater chance of affecting the final position of the barrel just before the bullet leaves the bore.

This is why the human element (for me) needed to be removed in order to test mechanical accuracy of the M&P.

I was all set to send my 5" Pro in for a barrel, as soon as I could, until I checked the cost of mandatory overnight shipping, from Michigan to California. The cheapest price is $93 each way. Factoring in the barrel, fitting and testing, it would run me somewhat over $500 to have this done. As bad as I want this barrel, I can't justify the total cost. It's not the fault of Apex, it's the shipping costs. I'm hoping they release the semi-drop-in version quickly.

I've watched several videos on fitting the semi-drop-in barrels and believe that anyone with reasonable analytical and mechanical skills can do the installation properly. If you take a feeler gauge and check the barrel hood front to back and side to side fit and how quickly it unlocks, I can see where an oversized unit filed and stoned to fit, would give better accuracy. The barrel hood on mine has .007 front to rear movement and .006 side to side movement. It also drops down (unlock) quite a bit, after moving the slide back just a few thousandths. I'm reasonably sure I could do a factory fit too, if given the chance.

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Having helped coach several hundred folks through transitional training to the M&P platform, I've got some experience with some of the "inaccuracy".

As Rastoff noted, low left is very common and generally due to poor trigger control (windage of the factory installed sights may actually need adjusted in some cases). However, the M&P doesn't really have a poor trigger, it's just different from the usual crisp short pull of many other semi-automatics. It was intentionally designed as kin to the double action revolver trigger. Some folks have difficulty making the transition and bouncing back and forth from convertional (1911 et all) to M&P trigger does nothing to help.

Yes, there may well be a few M&P9s out there with poor mechanical accuracy due to tolerance stack. A slightly oversize aftermarket barrel might help there. However, during transitional training I noticed that the better shots with our previous TDA sidearm had more trouble adapting to the new pistol than some others. I'll also admit I was one of those.

My personally purchased M&P9 (2006 vintage) is one of only two box stock firearms I own. It flat doesn't need anything, but then I'm not trying to shoot itty-bitty groups at 25 yards/meters. I don't expect it'll impress anyone here, but back in 2006, the LE sales rep noted that the M&P9 was more accurate than the M&P40. That's also been my experience, but my M&P9 experience isn't statistically significant.

It takes me a while to catch on but I might be getting it now. The "problem" with a semi-auto stems from the fact that the sights are on the slide, not the barrel. This means that the barrel must lock in exactly the same position relative to the slide every time - any change here, even a tiny one - will change the POI while the POA remains dependent on the slide and the sights. So, the gun can only be as accurate as the system that aligns and locks the barrel, even if the sights are exactly on the same point on the target. This tells me that Apex can redesign the barrel to fit tighter and reduce the difference between the barrel position on each shot. Sound right????

The short answer is yes. The barrel must lock up consistently shot to shot. This is the same for any semi auto pistol. Another critical aspect to accuracy is that the barrel must remain locked up in the same orientation relative to the sights for some period of time after the bullet leaves the barrel. This is what I refer to as dwell time. It is this that the M&P lacks.

The biggest problem that must be addressed is that the way the factory barrel locks up is...simply put- wrong. They might deny it, but the guns would not meet the accuracy criteria for the Army Modular Handgun System trials.

This is an Apex M&P barrel, photo taken from another site.

The photo of the hood and ejection port shows how much excess room there is on my new 5" Pro with the factory barrel. Front to back has .007 of clearance and the loaded chamber indicator area has .006 of clearance. This is why my shot to shot groups are so spread out. When the Apex barrel is fitted, there will be less than .001 clearance, front to back and around .002 clearance where the loaded chamber indicator fits into the slide (per Randy). Also, the barrel lug will be adjusted just enough, so the slide just closes and holds the barrel hood very tight upward into the slide.

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Yessir, this is exactly right.



Curious. Why would the barrel need to stay locked up after the bullet leaves the barrel? I would agree that it needs to stay locked up until the bullet leaves, but after doesn't make any sense to me. Can you explain the reasoning for this thought?

Wrong? That's fairly strong language. The M&P has the same lock up as the Glock. Is that wrong too? I'm not saying you're wrong in this assessment, just that I haven't heard this before. I'm curious as to why you would say that.

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Freedom isn't free.

Guns like Smiths and Glocks are set up loose to make them reliable, even if they get a little dirty. This is at the expense of accuracy. Also, if they had to pay someone to hand fit these guns, to get better accuracy, the cost would go through the roof.

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An increase in dwell time attenuates the recoil impulse- in other words absorbs some energy that would otherwise be transmitted to the hand as felt recoil. More importantly, increasing dwell time maintains pre-tension on the barrel so that harmonics within the barrel are kept consistent from shot to shot. Trying to run the dwell time too close to the moment of bullet exit is what got Smith into trouble with accuracy in the first place. This is also why the CZ P-07/P-09, Walther PPQ and Sig P320 will run circles around the M&P in head to head accuracy testing.

Actually, Glock and the M&P system of lockup are very different. The M&P in its current iteration uses the curved surface of the takedown lever that bears against the ramped surface on the underside of the barrel to prevent the slide assembly from sliding off of the frame. It is this ramped surface that lifts the barrel vertically under recoil spring force. Herein lies a big part of the problem.
The engineers at Smith did not account for what is known as the modulus of elasticity (Young's modulus) of the slide. Basically, all steels have the ability to stretch and rebound back to the original dimensions unless it is forced beyond its yield point. In the case of the M&P, the slide stretches in the area of the ejection port as the bullet pulls the barrel forward and the case pushes the breechface to the rear (Newton's Third Law of motion).

Consider that the recoil spring drives the slide forward and the breech face contacts the barrel at the rear face of the barrel hood extension. This is the point of contact that pushes the barrel forward. When the gun is in battery, the barrel being pushed forward by the slide (which is driven forward by the recoil spring) cams upward as the ramped surface of the barrel underlug contacts the takedown lever. When the slide stretches, the upward force on the barrel now becomes variable and is dependent on the pressure of the firing cartridge. Unfortunatley successive shots will never provide identical pressure curves (chronograph will show variations in bullet velocity).
In order to maintain consistent mechanical vertical lock up, the barrel bottom lug must bear against the frame's locking block. There are only two barrels currently on the market that provide this. Bar-Sto is one, and ours.

Glock's slide lock does not apply vertical force against the barrel in this manner.

So Randy, when (or are) you planning on a threaded barrel? I don't know if your being located in CA would cause a problem, but it would sure be handy for those of us who use a compensator (or suppressor).

We plan on threaded and 40 conversion barrels sometime in the near future. It might have to wait until we move into our new out of CA facility next year.

A break for freedom!
Good on ya!

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

Where are you moving to? Too bad you have to give up a beautiful spot on the coast.

Excellent description Randy. Thanks for that.

I'm not convinced that the Glock is completely free of the force you describe. Still, I can see that it is definitely less than the M&P thanks to your description.

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Freedom isn't free.

We will be relocating to Arizona. California has become too inhospitable to not only our industry, but business in general.
We hope to be up and running at the new facility by the summer of next year.

You may very well be right. We will use the same design parameters that we used for the M&P to develop an improved Glock barrel too. I am hopeful that we will see the same degree of improvement.

I hate to see businesses leave, but you are correct, especially where you are. I'm sure you'll do just as well, if not better, in AZ.

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Freedom isn't free.

Thank you Rastoff,

I believe it to be the right move for me and for the future of my employees.

I've had so-so accuracy with M&P barrels from the factory. Not bad, but generally not up to the accuracy I get with Sigs or with my S&W revolvers. I am an average marksman.

I recall the M&P9 barrel's twist rate was changed about two years ago (rolling change, not announced, but apparently evidenced by the presence of a dimple on the underside of the barrel -- can anyone confirm that?) to enhance accuracy with the 115 grain bullets that supposedly had the most problems. Can anyone say if that has helped things?

My unease with the stock barrel led to my buying a Storm Lake drop-in barrel, which I perceive to be more accurate.

I'm glad to see Randy Lee's technical expertise in this discussion and don't mind if he "promotes" his products while contributing to this forum. I see this sort of thing on other forums too, e.g., Bruce Gray on the SigForum, and as it is being done in true name it is totally ethical. Indeed, it might be considered improper for such contributors to have to make a financial contribution to the forum to be heard! Mr. Lee's research and development of Apex parts has fundamentally improved the M&P platform, making better guns available to all and even driving change by S&W itself as a result. All of us are smart enough to make decisions on whether we buy or don't buy a given product! As for a financial contribution to the forum, that's a good cause, and I, er, think I should send a little something in one of these days myself (soon, I promise!) since I've used the forum classified section to sell a bunch of small items over the years.

My two cents. Comments on the accuracy of Storm Lake, Apex, and other custom barrels would be useful.

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S&W Rover

My 5" Pro was produced in July 2015 and the barrel has two dimples on it. It has the 1 in 10 twist rate on it and it shoots the same 3.5-5" groups at 25 yards as my Compact, which was made in 2008 and has the 1 in 18.75 twist. You can see the difference in twist rate. I tried a Storm Lake drop in barrel in my Compact and it still shot the same sized groups, so I sent it back. I shot these off a pistol rest and I'm a pretty good shot and have no trouble placing shots into an inch at 25 yards with the right gun. After reading Randy Lee's posts on fitting, I now know how check a barrel to slide fit and feel quite confident in fitting one myself. I have a lighted magnifier, gunsmith files and stones and lots of patience to do it right.
Also, if I ever go to buy another gun, the calipers and feeler gauges are going with me to check fitting, even if I have to try several of the same model, to get the tightest fitting one.

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I've got some issues with this explanation. The locking block cam on my M&P9 shows wear patterns from lifting the the barrel. The cam on the bottom of the barrel shows matching wear patterns from engaging the frame block. My barrel hood and slide breech face also show wear patterns that indicate contact as appropriate.

OK, my particular example shoots well. I really can't buy the above explanation as a wholesale explanation of how S&W designed the pistol. No insult intended to Randy. I do accept that a barrel somewhat oversize in relation to factory barrels can reduce slide/barrel play and improve groups though.

IMHO the twist rate change is immaterial to accuracy. Possibly not if you're running heavy bullets at air rifle velocities, but not with industry standard ammunition. S&W used the 1-18.75 twist in their 9mm/.38/.357 guns (and a couple other calibers) for decades without apparent affect upon accuracy. I have a 5906 I shot with Federal 147 gr Hyda-Shoks (~900 fps) and it grouped them in one ragged hole at 25 yards.

I believe the markings that you see are from different phases of the gun cycling and not the static lockup. When the slide is cycling forwards, the feeding cartridge and then the hood extension force the barrel to move forward. It is the locking block surface that physically lifts the barrel vertically by contacting the angled surface of the barrel cam. The resistive force of the extractor bearing against the case is what holds the barrel low and results in the mating marks that you see on the horizontal surfaces of the locking block and barrel foot.
Also, when the cartridge is being fed into the chamber, the bullet nose contacts the upper surface of the barrel chamber. This lifts the barrel upward, and it is the top of the barrel hood rubbing against the inner surface of the slide that prevents the barrel from pitching too high, which would cause 3 point jams. I know this because the first iteration of Bar-Sto barrels didn't have enough material height and caused the gun to jam nearly every round.
You also have to take into account the rub on the barrel hood as the barrel is unlocking during the firing cycle. The brass still bears against the extractor causing resistance to the barrel as it tries to unlock- so the hood again rubs against the interior surface of the slide only in the opposite direction.

The barrel loses contact with the locking block once the ramped surface of the forward bottom lug contacts the takedown lever. Pulling back even as little as .001" on the slide will change the vertical force on the barrel. I will have a video out in a couple of weeks that demonstrates how unstable the barrel becomes due to the design and execution of the system.

Regarding twist rates, I agree the twist rate should not affect accuracy in an ideal world. But this assumes that the barrel has appropriate pre-tension and dwell time. Most of the factory guns do not have either component.

You are also comparing an all steel, hammer fired pistol to a striker fired, polmer framed pistol. They are entirely two differnt beasts when it comes to firing dynamics.

I will never know exactly why the factory went to a 1:10 twist (I don't think the Engineers want or are allowed to speak to me), but I can make a pretty good guess- torque stabilization of the barrel. It is the reason why the .40 and .45 M&Ps do not suffer from the same accuracy woes.

I'm really getting a great deal of information here, I think we are fortunate to have Randy Lee contribute even if I can't in my non-engineer brain understand the "barrel harmonics when the bullet is gone" part. Randy, as for S&W engineers not being allowed to talk to you, they should be sending you Christmas cards with cash in them. But I would like to hear what they say...never even had a "back channel" chat with one confessing or defending?

What a great thread. Thank you Randy Lee for your interaction and very detailed explanations.

Thanks Jhp,

Think of the barrel like a tuning fork. If the barrel is solidly locked up in the front and rear to the slide and frame, it is what is called pre-tensioned (not sure where the term came from to be honest). In other words, the barrel has some degree of stress like a stretched guitar string. It will move repeatedly in the same manner and small vibrations through the metal can be measured with little change even while the slide and barrel are moved slightly to the rear (dwell time with proper contact between the bottom barrel lug and the locking block).

In the case of the factory barrel, as soon as the slide moves to the rear- even a fraction of an inch, the forces at the front and rear of the barrel have now been greatly reduced. The barrel can now move up, down, left and right with no repeatability.

Try this test- with the gun unloaded and in battery, use your thumb to wiggle the muzzle around and try wiggling the barrel hood around in the ejection port. The barrel is currently pre tensioned- but not in a mechanically repeatable way once the gun fires.

Now, pull the slide back just a fraction of an inch- all it really takes is a thousandth of an inch or two. While the slide is ever so slightly held back, try wiggling the muzzle and chamber area again. You will most likely feel perceptible play at both the front and rear end. The barrel is now unstable in its lock up because of the way it contacts the takedown lever.

The barrel needs to have forces acting on it that are repeatable from shot to shot, and the only way to do that in a semi auto pistol is to make sure that the barrel has those same forces being applied not only while the bullet is moving down the bore, but for some time after.

Hopefully I haven't muddied the water further...

Most of the greatest strides in science came from people who challenged the status-quo. In this case, Randy took on S&W and they won't admit they screwed up. I just wish I had been as knowledgeable about this subject a few months ago, as I am now. I would not have bought my M&P Pro. I'm into it now, so I have to keep going and wait for the Apex barrel to correct the problem.

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Great explanation.
Likely the excellent accuracy of revolvers with the tensioned 2-pc barrels is due to this same effect.

Looking forward to trying the barrel in my 5" 9 Pro.

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-jwk-
US Army '72-'95

@ Randy Lee. When do you anticipate your M&P Barrels to be available?

BLACK FRIDAY?

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We are really trying to get them packaged up and ready to go next week.
It's like Santa's workshop at Apex. 😊

Thank you, yes, Randy, I re-read some earlier posts and see what you are talking about now. I was only thinking of barrel harmonics like in a rifle, not everything going on at unlocking and relocking affecting consistency.

Excellent!

About the tensioned barrel, that results from the force of the recoil spring exerting pressure high up on the rear of the barrel (hood or sidewalls of the chamber in later 1911s) while the barrel lug is against (pivoting on) the slide stop/takedown lever. This levers the muzzle of the barrel downward, creating a bending tension in the barrel. This exists in most semi-auto pistols.

On other points, you'll see signs of barrel/slide contact in many 1911s where the locking lugs/front of the chamber contact the slide during the firing cycle. It's not exclusive to the M&P series. The use of the slide stop/takedown lever to raise the barrel isn't unknown either, it was a design feature of the S&W metal framed autos. I'm not real sure that's how the M&P works, the wear on the barrel cam argues against it. The wear pattern on my take down lever and barrel seem to show the the only thing the take down lever does is stop forward motion.

This is kind of like arguing about the number of angels dancing on pin heads. If your barrel improves accuracy for those who (think they?) need it without adversely affecting reliablity in less than stellar conditions, do we really care?

1-10" twist was/is pretty standard for 9mm across the pond. It was also the preferred twist for the PPC Open class guns who shot 148 gr wadcutters slowly. So, the change could be sold for either reason even if there was really no practical difference. To the best of my knowledge, the standard .45 twist is stil 1-16".

This is what has finally made my dumbass understand what you are saying. I just tried this and sure enough, you're right. I haven't seen any prices on these barrels. Can you tell us what the cost will be for a 9 pro barrel? And why must we ship it overnight? If we just send the slide, it's technically not a firearm and we should be able to send it any method. Or am I missing something?

If you can follow half of my drivel, you are no dumbass.
Th price on our barrel is $199.95 for both the 4.25" and 5". Both semi-drop in and gunsmith fit.
The gunsmith fit barrels require fitting to both the slide and frame. It is the only way to ensure long term accuracy. Fitting the barrel only to the slide will show degradation of accuracy as slide and barrel hood contact points wear.
This is what some competitive shooters found after they installed aftermarket barrels that had longer barrel hood extensions that required shortening to fit their slides.

I think people will see excellent results with the SDI barrels. I designed the SDI version of our barrel to provide 90% (or better) of the accuracy capability of our gunsmith fit barrel without the expense or delay of sending your gun to a gunsmith. An installation video will be available, and if you have a little patience and a narrow pillar file you should be able to fit the barrel to your gun in less than 30 minutes.

There is a very simple test to confirm whether this is the case. Remove your takedown lever and reinstall the barrel and slide on the frame (Don't install the recoil spring assembly, as it will bind up the gun.).

Push the rear of the slide forward until it is approximately where it would rest in battery.

If your hypothesis is right, there should be no play in the barrel either at the muzzle or the chamber area.

Thanks randy. Sorry if I missed this but any idea when these will be available?

Barrels are going through final inspection and should be through packaging after Thanksgiving. Brownells will be carrying our barrels as well, so the first portion of the run will be ready to go to them as soon as we return from the Thanksgiving break.

My best estimate for release is the first week of December.

Has anyone here checked their M&P barrel fit, to see how much movement they have?
I checked my 5" Pro again today and have .007 front to back and .006 side to side. I removed the recoil spring and takedown lever and put the slide/barrel back in place, where it's supposed to be and could pull it up and down a few thousandths, though I had no way to measure it.
Randy told me that side to side should be .002 or less, front to back .0005 (that's 5/10ths) and vertically off the locking block, no movement at all.
I have my pillar files, honing stones and lighted magnifier, ready to go, as soon as we can order them.
There is no doubt in my mind that a properly fitted barrel will substantially reduce my group sizes with this gun.

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I think the APEX kits are fine. Just don't go beyond a carry kit. I went whole hog on an M&P pro for some speed shooting steel race gun. What a piece of ****. You can't time it. Sear release vs striker clearance. Can you imagine a barrel?? Pass. I did buy a Wilson match barrel for my pro and it did improve groups at 25yrds. Then I installed a FSS and flat faced trigger from APEX. Now the once great gun is unreliable. On top of that they would not provide any customer service for me. I would be very cautious of buying a barrel from them.

I guess I'm number two. I first bought one of your comp kits a few years ago. Worked great. Later, I went full blown and got the FSS and flat faced trigger. It has caused me nothing but problems. I have had NOTHING but problems with it. I have gone to my standard M&P9 for matches. The PRO is just not reliable with this "razzuu" kit. I'll stick with the stock setup over this one. Don't just sell kits, stand behind them. I have called and emailed on this problem. Got ZERO help. This is from a guy that has installed more than a few of your kits. Go back to when you were a small company and had great CS.