M&P 2.0c or full size with Apex

Hi All,

I’ve been in about 5 IDPA events so far with my fully stock PPQ 5in and I’ve done pretty well. But, I also have a full size M&P 2.0 which was intended to be just a fun range gun. But now I prefer everything about it compared to the PPQ except the trigger (I hate the hinged trigger). So, I ordered the Apex trigger, which I just received in the mail. But, I also just found out about a deal for M&P 2.0c for $380.
So, my question is....
I know changing the trigger moves my full size from SSP to ESP. But, I can stay in the CCP division if I change the trigger on the compact. With CCP giving you so much more time compared to ESP, is it worth selling my 2.0 full size for the 2.0 compact?
Since I live in a state with a 10round limit on mags, I’d also have to pay the gunsmith $20 to fix the mags so they’re state compliant.

Another option I guess is to just keep training with the full size and enjoy what I have. When I’m more experienced and it’s available for the 2.0, I could get the ‘performance slide and barrel’ package.
I think the package for the orig is around $400. Just as expensive as a whole other gun. But I’d prob lose almost as much on the trade.

Why is the non factory parts rule different for a full size vs compact?

CBStuard said:

Why is the non factory parts rule different for a full size vs compact?

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That’s a good question. You’d think there would be an ‘Enhanced Compact Pistol’ division for anyone that modified their CCP.
My guess is the CCP division is too new and not so popular yet. So there wouldn’t be enough people to split them up.
Another guess is the people who compete in the CCP and BUG divisions are mainly there to train what they carry daily and therefore don’t modify as heavily as the full size guns might be.
If my first guess is right, maybe we will see a ECP division one day!

No intention to carry either gun?

If you are only playing gun games, then the time restrictions for having an improved trigger on the FS should not be an issue soon.

The advantage to the compact size is for carry, not necessarily competition.

I would shoot the compact in competition if it’s what I carried. I would make sure I had a carry weight Apex trigger rather than a <4# competition trigger.

The current IDPA rules for CCP reference the ESP modification rules.
That leaves only SSP and Revolver as anything like "factory stock", with all the other divisions allowing full APEX mods and no minimum trigger pull.
In other words, the "equipment modification race" is on!! Ken Hackathorn and I, among many others, think it is a disgrace and an abandonment of the original stated purpose to use normal carry guns in competition.
As an IDPA match director, I carefully check guns claimed for SSP and move the externally modified ones to ESP, and put optics and ports in "Not for competition." (Shoot for no score) The current whine is "Why not optics in IDPA?"
Having run my first IDPA state match in 2004 and liking the ORIGINAL rules, I follow the current rules, and refer to it as IDPA 3.0, more like USPSA with each revision, sorta using cover. I am also a USPSA CRO, so I know both IDPA and USPSA rules.

To the OP:
After 5 IDPA matches, you want to get into the "modified equipment race?" Why?
My recommendation is to shoot what you have for now, and after you have learned the game and moved up in Class, then decide what your objective is. If you want to make Master, or win State Matches, then you have to see what guns the "top guns" are shooting. And the CCP top gun is not a gussied up M&P; try shooting a 9mm 1911 that barely fits into the CCP envelope/weight and has a 3# custom SA trigger.

For most of us, we aspire to a class win, admire our friends who ARE Masters with sponsorship, and enjoy supporting and participating in the shooting sports.

CB3 said:

No intention to carry either gun?

If you are only playing gun games, then the time restrictions for having an improved trigger on the FS should not be an issue soon.

The advantage to the compact size is for carry, not necessarily competition.

I would shoot the compact in competition if it’s what I carried. I would make sure I had a carry weight Apex trigger rather than a <4# competition trigger.

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Either gun meaning the PPQ 5in or the M&P 2.0 FS? Nope. Too big for me. I know there’s not much of a difference in size with the 2.0 compact. But the 1/2in in the grip makes a huge diff for me.

I know the compact size is for carry and not necessarily competition. But, with only 1/4in diff in slide length and 23 additional seconds given to the CPP for marksman vs ESP (248 vs 225), seems like a huge advantage. But, then again ...like you said... if I’m looking to play gun games, I’ll (hopefully) improve enough soon where that won’t matter.

OKFC05 said:

The current IDPA rules for CCP reference the ESP modification rules.
That leaves only SSP and Revolver as anything like "factory stock", with all the other divisions allowing full APEX mods and no minimum trigger pull.
In other words, the "equipment modification race" is on!! Ken Hackathorn and I, among many others, think it is a disgrace and an abandonment of the original stated purpose to use normal carry guns in competition.
As an IDPA match director, I carefully check guns claimed for SSP and move the externally modified ones to ESP, and put optics and ports in "Not for competition." (Shoot for no score) The current whine is "Why not optics in IDPA?"
Having run my first IDPA state match in 2004 and liking the ORIGINAL rules, I follow the current rules, and refer to it as IDPA 3.0, more like USPSA with each revision, sorta using cover. I am also a USPSA CRO, so I know both IDPA and USPSA rules.

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Exactly why I don’t play gun games any more.

I carry a FS M&P 9 with a 5# Apex trigger and a Trij RMR 06. It IS my carry gun, Appendix Carry (four years now without shooting any part of my body, just like the previous 18 years I have carried concealed), which IDPA does not allow. That’s because equipment and technology naturally move on. The above referenced attitude, “since 2004”, could be topped only by requiring all shooters to use single shot black powder dueling pistols, because they were the first self defense handguns.

I have my own training routines, gained in part from having shot IDPA in the mid to late 90’s, with my then current carry gun, a Keltec P-11.

For me, IDPA was not about the score. It was about the training opportunities. Now with the Rulies in charge, it’s just not as much fun. I really don’t care if I don’t get an official score. I just dislike the elitist attitudes. IDPA still has value for many; just not so much for me.

OKFC05 said:

To the OP:
After 5 IDPA matches, you want to get into the "modified equipment race?" Why?
My recommendation is to shoot what you have for now, and after you have learned the game and moved up in Class, then decide what your objective is. If you want to make Master, or win State Matches, then you have to see what guns the "top guns" are shooting. And the CCP top gun is not a gussied up M&P; try shooting a 9mm 1911 that barely fits into the CCP envelope/weight and has a 3# custom SA trigger.

For most of us, we aspire to a class win, admire our friends who ARE Masters with sponsorship, and enjoy supporting and participating in the shooting sports.

Click to expand...

Honestly, I’d love to make Master, win state matches, etc.... and I’d prefer not to get into the modified equipment race this early. But, I bought the M&P 2.0 a year ago because the grip and ergonomics felt/feel incredible and (since then) have invested so much time and money into training with it. But, I can still shoot the VP9, XDM, P10, and Glock 17 way better! (Meaning 2in groups vs 8in groups at 20 yards... 2in tighter group at 7yds). So, my hope is that it’s all due to the trigger. I never really cared for the hinged trigger. But, I thought I could overcome that obstacle (for me) through training. After a year and still being able to shoot anything (with no training) better than the one I have, it’s either change the trigger or the whole gun. Nothing else feels as good in the hand, though.
Should I just sell the M&P, get one of the guns I shoot better with stock and keep training?

"For me, IDPA was not about the score. It was about the training opportunities. Now with the Rulies in charge, it’s just not as much fun. I really don’t care if I don’t get an official score. I just dislike the elitist attitudes. IDPA still has value for many; just not so much for me. "


And the "Rulies" have made it worse on the stage setters than on the shooters. Some of my favorite "old school" stages looked like junk yards with target scatter around. Work your way through cover and shoot 'em as you find 'em. Now each authorized shooting position must be marked with a fault line, and the shooter can stand in the open next to cover and shoot as long as behind a fault line on the ground. Sucks for training. Latest from Joyce was an email saying to stop including shooters moving while shooting, which is part of the "long course" classifier...?? So now we are teaching shooters to always stand in the open to shoot defensively..???


By the way, I personally support including the current "latest and greatest" in carry gear. If we allow optics in the match at all, why not score it in a "Carry Optics Division"? It is no more work for me, unlike the added equipment and SO training required for Carbine Division.

brianc401 said:

Honestly, I’d love to make Master, win state matches, etc.... and I’d prefer not to get into the modified equipment race this early. But, I bought the M&P 2.0 a year ago because the grip and ergonomics felt/feel incredible and (since then) have invested so much time and money into training with it. But, I can still shoot the VP9, XDM, P10, and Glock 17 way better! (Meaning 2in groups vs 8in groups at 20 yards... 2in tighter group at 7yds). So, my hope is that it’s all due to the trigger. I never really cared for the hinged trigger. But, I thought I could overcome that obstacle (for me) through training. After a year and still being able to shoot anything (with no training) better than the one I have, it’s either change the trigger or the whole gun. Nothing else feels as good in the hand, though.
Should I just sell the M&P, get one of the guns I shoot better with stock and keep training?

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I wish you were close enough to take some classes with me. You have a trigger control problem, which can be fixed, but practicing shooting groups and repeating the same mistakes won't do it. The first thing I do is use a target with no marks and work on a trigger pull that keeps going while the front sight does its little figure 8 thing. Nothing screws up a shot worse that trying to get the gun to go off when the sights look "just right" which tendency is exacerbated when trying to shoot "good groups". You need to learn how to operate the trigger without moving the gun before the shot, which is the most important skill for pistol shooting.
You don't need a new gun; the M&P is fine. If you don't want to learn trigger control, putting an APEX into it will mask your problem, and you can shoot ESP. If you look at the classifier scores there is little difference between SSP and ESP, even though ESP allows nearly all mods. It's not the arrow, it's the indian.

I definitely haven’t been involved in IDPA enough to notice the Elitist attitudes. But, I have noticed the shooters are allowed to stand next to the cover as long as they’re behind the fault line, which was very strange to me because I thought ‘what’s the point of the cover?’. But, I figured either: 1) I didn’t understand the rules entirely or 2) The local matches were more relaxed than regional matches.

So, my impressions is that it basically comes down to personal preference. If i compete with what I carry and I set the apex trigger to about 4.5 to 5 pounds, the 2.0 compact is all I need. If I’m going to have 2 guns (one for carry and one to compete), then I’ll keep the full size (with plans to eventually buy the 2.0 5in.) and find a good double-stack subcompact for easy/light conceal carry.

OKFC05 said:

I wish you were close enough to take some classes with me. You have a trigger control problem, which can be fixed, but practicing shooting groups and repeating the same mistakes won't do it. The first thing I do is use a target with no marks and work on a trigger pull that keeps going while the front sight does its little figure 8 thing. Nothing screws up a shot worse that trying to get the gun to go off when the sights look "just right" which tendency is exacerbated when trying to shoot "good groups". You need to learn how to operate the trigger without moving the gun before the shot, which is the most important skill for pistol shooting.
You don't need a new gun; the M&P is fine. If you don't want to learn trigger control, putting an APEX into it will mask your problem, and you can shoot ESP. If you look at the classifier scores there is little difference between SSP and ESP, even though ESP allows nearly all mods. It's not the arrow, it's the indian.

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I just saw your reply. I’ll admit it’s me and not the gun. It’s just frustrating that I shoot great with every other stock trigger. Just not with mine because of the hinge.
I’ve taken several private lessons and I’ll keep taking them. I’ll also continue to do my dryfire drills for 20mins every night on top of my range-time twice a week. But, I’m done with trying to get the hinged trigger to work for me. I’m seriously throwing in the towel! Lol