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Old 04-14-2009, 07:58 AM
JMT45M&P JMT45M&P is offline
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I have a M&P45 and shot about 500 rounds. I am hitting the target very consistently 2" low and 2" on the left of the target. I have a very good pattern of about 2" but never in the center of the target.

Anyone else have this problem?
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Old 04-14-2009, 07:58 AM
JMT45M&P JMT45M&P is offline
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I have a M&P45 and shot about 500 rounds. I am hitting the target very consistently 2" low and 2" on the left of the target. I have a very good pattern of about 2" but never in the center of the target.

Anyone else have this problem?
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:40 AM
OKFC05 OKFC05 is offline
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Everybody that anticipates the shot. Classic shooter error.
Try dryfiring with a coin on top of the slide.
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Old 04-14-2009, 09:01 AM
JMT45M&P JMT45M&P is offline
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Thanks OKFC05 that is a good learning tool. I have tried dryfiring at a small point and I seem ok. Also I have 9MM ruger and a 9MM Kahr that I do not have any problems with. But still maybe an issue with me and the 45.

Just wondered if others have had any issues with the 45 M&P.
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:21 PM
M29since14 M29since14 is offline
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You didn't say what distance you are shooting at, and whether the gun has always done this. Dry firing and watching your sights is a logical place to start. Having another shooter of equal or superior skill try your gun is another possibility.

The divergence of 2" in POA-POI is small, if your range is out around 15-yards or so. Your sights simply may need adjustment.

New guns can settle in a bit too, sometimes, usually in the vertical axis. Right now my M&P45 is shooting a bit left at 25-yards. I am going to shoot it a little more before moving the sights, but with your gun having 500 rounds through it, surely it has settled down by now. Even a dirty gun can make a difference, but probably not with a gun like an M&P45. My Les Baer Premier II is very sensitive to POA/POI divergence when it is not properly cleaned and lubed.
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:28 PM
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Right-handed shooter, right? Low/left issues aren't exactly uncommon for right-handed shooters. I've observed that it's generally related to a bit of recoil anticipation, loss of sight picture at the instant of firing (no follow through) and a bit of trigger jerk (or clenching the finger, 'curling' the finger and moving the trigger, and hence the gun, a bit leftward, especially when focus on the sight picture is lost at the instant of firing).

Granted, I had to make a very slight windage adjustment on my M&P 45. I didn't do it until I'd fired a few hundred rounds through my M&P 45 and had become acclimatized to the grip, balance and trigger, though. I don't make sight adjustments quickly or as a routine matter, either.

I can't count the number of times I've had someone bring me their duty gun claiming the sights were 'off' and that it wasn't accurate. More often then not, when I introduced an empty chamber condition or dummy round without their realizing it, they had the opportunity to experience their anticipatory flinch and/or trigger clench/jerk. Once they could actually feel it for themselves, without recoil occurring at the same time and masking it, they finally seemed to accept the possibility that it was happening because of something they were doing. That's the first step toward changing the software which is causing the hardware to act so that the condition occurs.

Holding the sight picture/alignment and following through with it for each trigger press helped a lot of folks over the years (myself included), instead of thinking about the recoil and preparing to 'handle it'. The gun can generally take care of the recoil as long as the shooter has a proper grip.

Learning to discount feeling the recoil and concentrating on the sights, trigger press and follow through ... especially under the watchful eye of a safety minded, more experienced shooter or instructor ... can be helpful.

FWIW, while working with a relatively new firearms instructor in recent years, and helping him with his personal shooting technique, I finally relented to adjusting his sights at his insistence. I told him that his grip, trigger press and follow through were the primary cause of his POA/POI issues, but he was insistent on having his sights adjusted. (His gun shot perfectly well when it came to POA/POI in my hands and the hands of another instructor). I told him he really needed to work on the software instead of modifying the hardware, but I made the change. He was happy with the results ...

Until his POI shifted the other way relative to his POA many weeks later, after continued work on his grip, trigger press and follow through. The trigger press and follow through were the major issues influencing his 'accuracy'.

Then, of course, I had to move the sights back to where they had been in the first place.

Another thing I noticed with my M&P 45 is that a couple of differences between the medium and small grip inserts wasn't immediately apparent. I liked the way the small insert felt on the gun in my hands. It made it feel very similar to a 1911 with a flat mainspring housing. The medium insert felt just a bit bulkier and 'less 1911-ish'.

On the other hand, the medium insert allowed me to make faster, consistently more tightly grouped shot strings, especially when involved in various drills (other than simply 'target' shooting).

In other words, the medium insert actually seemed to 'work better' during live fire than the small insert, even though the small insert felt better in the hand just holding it and doing presentations. Interesting. I didn't reach the decision of which to actually keep on the gun for a while, not wanting to have just one or two 'good days' at the range unduly influence me.

Don't get me wrong. The small insert gave me great practical accuracy, even at longer handgun distances (50+ yds), but the medium insert made it a better choice, for me, over the course of several months.

I did much the same thing with the medium & small inserts on the 99 series, too, eventually settling on the medium insert even though the small insert felt 'better' in my hand. The 'proof' was in the better consistent range performance, though, during live-fire spread over many range sessions and a lot of different courses-of-fire.

My M&P 45 has demonstrated itself to be very accurate. Surprisingly so. I can 'follow the hole' and make fairly tight cloverleafs at 15 yards using duty-type ammunition. One day, until I lost my focus, I was able to shoot a 4-shot group that I could pretty much cover with the palm of my hand at 50 yards one day, standing, 2-handed unsupported.

It makes me wish I was a better shooter, that's for sure.

Just my thoughts.
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:57 PM
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Thanks guys for your advice. I will work on not curling the finger and loss of sight picture. It just makes me mad that I get a good grouping but just low and left! LOL!! Most of the time I set the target at 15 yards or closer! But with my old 9MM I hit just fine, great grouping. I guess it is back to the range and practice. I like the idea of the coin on the slide and dryfiring. Will try that too. Of course I know there will be no recoil.
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Old 09-06-2012, 10:12 PM
tangodown59871 tangodown59871 is offline
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Default Very helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastbolt View Post
Right-handed shooter, right? Low/left issues aren't exactly uncommon for right-handed shooters. I've observed that it's generally related to a bit of recoil anticipation, loss of sight picture at the instant of firing (no follow through) and a bit of trigger jerk (or clenching the finger, 'curling' the finger and moving the trigger, and hence the gun, a bit leftward, especially when focus on the sight picture is lost at the instant of firing).

Granted, I had to make a very slight windage adjustment on my M&P 45. I didn't do it until I'd fired a few hundred rounds through my M&P 45 and had become acclimatized to the grip, balance and trigger, though. I don't make sight adjustments quickly or as a routine matter, either.

I can't count the number of times I've had someone bring me their duty gun claiming the sights were 'off' and that it wasn't accurate. More often then not, when I introduced an empty chamber condition or dummy round without their realizing it, they had the opportunity to experience their anticipatory flinch and/or trigger clench/jerk. Once they could actually feel it for themselves, without recoil occurring at the same time and masking it, they finally seemed to accept the possibility that it was happening because of something they were doing. That's the first step toward changing the software which is causing the hardware to act so that the condition occurs.

Holding the sight picture/alignment and following through with it for each trigger press helped a lot of folks over the years (myself included), instead of thinking about the recoil and preparing to 'handle it'. The gun can generally take care of the recoil as long as the shooter has a proper grip.

Learning to discount feeling the recoil and concentrating on the sights, trigger press and follow through ... especially under the watchful eye of a safety minded, more experienced shooter or instructor ... can be helpful.

FWIW, while working with a relatively new firearms instructor in recent years, and helping him with his personal shooting technique, I finally relented to adjusting his sights at his insistence. I told him that his grip, trigger press and follow through were the primary cause of his POA/POI issues, but he was insistent on having his sights adjusted. (His gun shot perfectly well when it came to POA/POI in my hands and the hands of another instructor). I told him he really needed to work on the software instead of modifying the hardware, but I made the change. He was happy with the results ...

Until his POI shifted the other way relative to his POA many weeks later, after continued work on his grip, trigger press and follow through. The trigger press and follow through were the major issues influencing his 'accuracy'.

Then, of course, I had to move the sights back to where they had been in the first place.

Another thing I noticed with my M&P 45 is that a couple of differences between the medium and small grip inserts wasn't immediately apparent. I liked the way the small insert felt on the gun in my hands. It made it feel very similar to a 1911 with a flat mainspring housing. The medium insert felt just a bit bulkier and 'less 1911-ish'.

On the other hand, the medium insert allowed me to make faster, consistently more tightly grouped shot strings, especially when involved in various drills (other than simply 'target' shooting).

In other words, the medium insert actually seemed to 'work better' during live fire than the small insert, even though the small insert felt better in the hand just holding it and doing presentations. Interesting. I didn't reach the decision of which to actually keep on the gun for a while, not wanting to have just one or two 'good days' at the range unduly influence me.

Don't get me wrong. The small insert gave me great practical accuracy, even at longer handgun distances (50+ yds), but the medium insert made it a better choice, for me, over the course of several months.

I did much the same thing with the medium & small inserts on the 99 series, too, eventually settling on the medium insert even though the small insert felt 'better' in my hand. The 'proof' was in the better consistent range performance, though, during live-fire spread over many range sessions and a lot of different courses-of-fire.

My M&P 45 has demonstrated itself to be very accurate. Surprisingly so. I can 'follow the hole' and make fairly tight cloverleafs at 15 yards using duty-type ammunition. One day, until I lost my focus, I was able to shoot a 4-shot group that I could pretty much cover with the palm of my hand at 50 yards one day, standing, 2-handed unsupported.

It makes me wish I was a better shooter, that's for sure.

Just my thoughts.


Thank you very much for the info. I purchased a new M&P 45 a few days ago and had the POA/POI problem you described. Possibly I am doing the same thing you mentioned. I plan to go and fire mine tomorrow and will pay attention to my trigger pull. Again, thank you. Tango Down
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Old 09-06-2012, 11:29 PM
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De nada.

Don't think you've discovered anything "new", though. It's something most of us have to resolve when adopting new pistols at one time or another.

FWIW, since I originally posted in this thread back in early '09, I've run a lot more rounds through my M&P 45. Over the course of continuing to work with the grip palm swell inserts, I eventually decided I was able to consistently wring the best practical accuracy out of my M&P 45 while using the small insert, under the greatest range of drills, quals & training.

I'd guess it's because my longtime familiarity and use of 1911's with flat MSH's worked in my favor.
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