There appears to be some who want to have this debate. Instead of continuing to hijack threads of a different topic, let's just discuss it here.

I personally find great value in weapon attachments, others apparently think that they're the dumbest thing in the history of things. Debate is welcome.

Proper weapon light usage appears to be difficult for some people to comprehend. Before we can have this discussion, one thing must be gotten out of the way first:

A weapon mounted light is only to be used AFTER a justified reason to draw your gun has presented itself.

Now read it again...

A weapon mounted light is only to be used AFTER a justified reason to draw your gun has presented itself.

A weapon light is not a flashlight and must not be used in the same way.

Let's move on...

Obviously a lot of defensive situations don't include enough time to be diddling around with weapon attachments, but still... alot of them do.

Tom Grieve recently cited a statistic by John Lott which is that approximately 98% of the time when a person who's defending themselves presents a firearm, the attacker gives up, and usually runs away. This means, if you do have to draw your gun, it's highly probable that you won't have to shoot. Don't depend on that statistic though... just be aware of it.

The weapon light typically will partially blind an attacker and cause him to momentarily look away. This obviously gives you a tactical advantage that can be exploited in a variety of ways, depending on the circumstances.

In the scenario where you've already presented the gun and the attacker has at least stopped in his tracks, at minimum, the light is very useful for obtaining a clear view of exactly what his hands are doing and what's in them.

In a home defense situation, the best thing typically to do is hide behind cover or in concealment and call 911 with a gun ready. However, we all know that situation isn't possible in all circumstances, especially if you have to go collect the kids, or whatever.

If you're moving from room to room with a flashlight or weapon light that's on and there is an armed attacker, odds are that he'll just shoot at the light source, which is not good. Also, with the light on and with an armed attacker in the home, you're giving away your position from around the corner.

Momentary light activation generally is better. If you do find yourself in a situation where constant-on is necessary, it's wise to maintain low ready and use the peripheral splash of the light to see. The rules of firearms safety definitely still apply...

There have been scenarios where a homeowner believed a home invasion was taking place, because of glass breaking or whatever, and when the silhouette of the "intruder" appeared, he fired and dropped the target. After the lights were turned on, he discovered that he just shot a family member.

Scenarios like that can be prevented with a weapon light.

Trigger control and trigger discipline are of the utmost importance yet fine motor movements become difficult in high adrenaline situations. For that reason, positive threat identification with a weapon light should be achieved from low ready.

When used properly, a weapon light allows you to follow the rules of firearms safety in low light, not break them.

• Treat all guns as if they're loaded
• Never point a gun at anything you don't intend to destroy
• Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot
• Be sure of your target and what's behind it.

The weapon light enables you to "be sure of your target" and it allows you to see "whats behind it." When used properly, the gun never gets pointed at anything that you dont intend on destroying and your finger never touches the trigger until you're ready to shoot.

If you do choose to carry a weapon mounted light, you must be able to easily activate the light. I personally prefer one where I can smoothly activate the light with my support hand during the draw stroke. A lot of practice activating the light is necessary, it should be a function of muscle memory, and it shouldn't add any time to the draw stroke. I also need to be able to easily activate and deactivate the light from low ready or compressed ready.

Weapon lasers can also be helpful. If I had to choose between just a light or just a laser, I'd choose the light, but my actual pick is the light/laser combo whenever possible.

A weapon laser comes with a major caveat because in outdoor daylight conditions, the laser will not be visible, especially in sunlight. No matter what color laser you pick, they're all mostly useless in daylight conditions, or even at night with too bright of a weapon light against certain colors of clothing. You cannot become dependent on the laser as an aiming solution.

With that out of the way...

In a defensive situation where you've presented your gun, a lot of people report that they were unable to unglue their eyes from the attacker, unable to see their iron sights, or unable to find the dot in their optic. This threat focused vision is a natural byproduct of your adrenaline fueled flight-or-fight response. Because a weapon laser appears on your target, you have an aiming solution even with threat locked vision. You'll also have an aiming solution if you're aiming from an unconventional position, such as with the gun near your own body for whatever reason.

In a scenario where the gun is drawn at low/compressed ready, and the weapon/laser is activated, you'll be able to see exactly where the gun is aimed through your peripheral vision.

In a defensive situation where you have the luxury of time and distance, and you're not facing an attacker who has a gun, a laser in their eyes will have a significantly higher blinding effect than the brightest light will. Think of any scenario where there's time to give verbal commands. It's an edge case scenario that can (and has) allowed people to avoid shooting an attacker. For whatever reason, some attackers take a weapon laser very seriously, even if they're not taking your gun seriously. I've seen it first hand.

Because of morals, perhaps your spiritual beliefs, and certainly because of the inevitable legal aftermath of a justified self defense shooting, it's highly desirable to avoid shooting an attacker whenever possible. Simultaneously, when faced with an armed attacker, it's critical that you can quickly and accurately put multiple shots on target without being dependent on lasers, optics, or even iron sights. For that reason, becoming skilled with "point shooting" is a huge asset in a defensive situation where there's just no time and when fractions of seconds matter.

If you conceal carry, being able to quickly draw from the holster is necessary. Speed comes from efficiency and muscle memory which are byproducts of training and practice, lots of practice.

During dry fire practice, a weapon laser presents unique training opportunities. With it on, you can see how your grip and trigger pull mechanics affect your point of aim in real time. While practicing drawing from the holster, you can leave the light on and when you draw, you can see the exact path the muzzle takes, which should be a straight line from your holster to the target and not a zig-zag across half of the room. Furthermore, you can practice "point shooting" because you can see your point of aim without your sights being in front of your face.

On top of everything I've already mentioned, a weapon light attachment causes the handgun to be more flat shooting which is highly beneficial when fast follow up shots are necessary. The obvious reason is because you're adding more weight near the muzzle.

For those who use an extra high grip with their support hand, you'll have better ergonomics for your support hand index finger and you'll be able to more easily keep it out of the way of the trigger guard while tightly wrenching down on the gun. For those who dont know, this is where the knuckle of your support-hand middle finger meets the bottom of the trigger guard, instead of your index finger knuckle. The benefit of this grip style, once mastered, is superior recoil management.

No matter what attachments and accessories you put on your gun, it will only ever be as good as the person who's operating it. Mastering the fundamentals and constantly being conscious of the fundamental rules for firearms safety are the most beneficial and most important things. You can not buy your way into being a good shooter. Practice is the only way.

Why do you speak to everyone else as if they are idiots?

Photo of quote:


What a helpful reply... Would it be so bad to just either weigh-in on what he is asking about, or say nothing at all? There seemingly are an abundance of trolls on these threads at times; people who just want to pick fights on the interwebs, instead of contributing anything of worth to any conversation. They just say childish things to mock the OP of any thread.

Really, why say such a petty thing? I'll ignore it when its someone saying trash to me - but the OP put together a long, well thought-out post asking for feedback, and all you can think to do is mock his writing.

You are the one speaking to others "as if they are idiots".

Specifically regarding my original post for this thread, your observation is not entirely off the mark. I do however want to draw a distinction between people who say idiotic things and people who truly are idiots... There's a difference, but let's not pretend that the internet is devoid of idiots either.

It's worth noting that my final draft for that post had a line about keyboard commandos and another line about mall ninjas, which I deleted so as to minimize how much I provoked various readers.

I offer no apologies.

In various places over the last couple of weeks, including this forum, I've been drawn into this weapon light debate a number of times. The reoccurring objection by those who oppose weapon lights involves their misconception that a weapon light is used the same way as an everyday flashlight. Their demagoguery of the subject prevents the conversation from moving past that point, especially with their tirades about how everyone in a dark parking lot is getting flagged, about how I'm breaking all the rules of firearms safety, and about how I'm going to go to prison because of a weapon light.

Obviously, those people are completely failing to understand how to use a weapon light. You can accuse them of being idiots if you wish however I'll say that their opinion on weapon lights, most decidedly, is idiotic.

Now you know.

Question is, why did his question upset you so much? Your posting is as mocking as his supposedly is. And yes the wall of text was intended to appear superior. A far better discussion invitation would have been limited to the first 2 sentences.

Good post! I agree with just about everything you said. I’ll give some background and add my spin.

I thought lasers were a gimmick but when I worked at a large firearm retailer back in late 2000 we started carrying CTC laser grips and I was sent to an 8hr law enforcement training class with Clyde Caseres - the LE trainer for CTC at the time. The class sold me and I bought a set.

Fast forward to 2002 and I was hired by the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department as a deputy. While in the academy I learned that CTC grips had been tested and were to be approved soon. I was shooting the Steel Challenge (back when it was held in Southern California) and when my turn came at the prize table I chose the package with a certificate for CTC grips.

I was in the third class held by the department in February of 2003 (it was the second week of the program and the earliest class that fit my schedule). A couple months ago before I retired I pulled the records and found the roster for my class… weird to see my “sign in” over twenty years later.

I went to patrol in early 2007 and used those CTC grips on my Beretta 92FS… A little less than a year later weapon mounted lights (WMLs) were approved and I started carrying my Vertec with a set of CTC grips and a Surefire X200. In many different situations I saw the benefit of WMLs and lasers… Including people who reacted with very satisfactory results and others who could care less that a laser attached to a pistol was pointed at their head.

I did the field training officer thing for a while and in 2011 I was promoted (after a six month testing process) to a full-time firearm instructor with the Weapons Training Unit. In that capacity I had the privilege of updating the academy and in-service low light program and addressing issues with WML training to make our program one of the leaders in the LE world. In addition to some other cool stuff I was also able to evaluate pistol optics, write the proposal, get them approved, and be one of the three main guys to implement the training program. While doing that I completely revised and modernized our academy firearms program.

I never liked our laser training program. After my initial CTC class, going to the department class was a joke. When a request came in late 2021 I agreed to teach a laser class but it would be my way and an 8 hour class instead of the 2.5 hour class the department held. I was very happy (and I think the students were too) with how it came out.

I retired at the end of September after spending almost a year at our armory/administrative office building a modernized department Weapons Training intranet (department only) site and doing a variety of special projects. I also continued to instruct pistol optic and 1911/2011 classes… something that was near and dear to me.

So to add to what has already been a great original post I’ll say the following:

Lasers are in increasing use by certain high-speed LE teams. The advantages of both visible and IR lasers in the proper contexts is simply awesome. I think proper training is key with the understanding it’s a niche tool for specific circumstances and environments.

Having a WML doesn’t mean one can’t use a hand held light when the situation is more appropriate for that. I believe if the choice was one or the other a hand-held light is essential, but that’s not the case… we can have both and both is good.

WML activation is a thing. Proper manipulation technique can be the difference between reliable activation under stress and having to shoot in the dark or in uncontrolled changing lighting conditions… and can mean the difference between safe firearms handling and negligent discharges. I know few people who have really done a deep dive into this. I did, but as I’m just barely retired, I haven’t decided what my future holds yet. At this point I don’t know if it will be a blog subject, YouTube video, training class I offer, or what… but putting a WML on one’s gun without any training is like buying a gun without training… It might be OK… and it might not.

Lasers and WMLs are tools to take advantage or create advantage in specific environmental (lighting) conditions. They are not primary tools such as iron sights or pistol optics. Proper training and an understanding of how these tools fit in the overall skill set and tactical knowledge base will allow the user to apply them in the best way possible.

Thanks for your kind words and for your great post. I think that with your specific experience, expertise, and skill set, a lot of people would benefit greatly if you choose to share your knowledge. I hope you do. Perspective like yours is of great value.

As a country, we probably have more people who are new to guns and to concealed carry than we ever have. Because of the Bruen and Heller cases, we'll continue to see restrictive gun laws in various states crumble and as a result, we'll see more and more new gun owners that are hungry for knowledge.

I completely agree how the subject of WML activation is a thing that's not easy to master. I carry a M&P Shield with a TLR6 and don't have small hands. It definitely wasn't easy to master hitting that little button in a reliable way. It took some time but eventually I got it... now, somehow, I can't miss.

I'm curious what your opinion is of features found in the Viridian brand, specifically with their auto-on feature. I have tried a couple of their products over the years. If you're not familiar, basically there's a magnetic switch in the WML and a magnet in the holster. The WML gets holstered while on, the magnet turns it off, and on the draw the magnet turns it back on. Their holster compatibility options are very limited but I'm curious what you think of that concept, especially for a civilian in a defensive situation.

My initial concern is that technology would be a crutch that prevents people from training properly.... but since the tech makes the battery of arms fundamentally different, and because civilians don't engage in room clearing, what exactly does "training properly" even mean? The technology makes WML activation automatic at the holster.

For use on a home defense handgun, I've been considering their X5LCam which is the light, laser, and camera in a TLR1-ish footprint. A recent self defense situation taught me the high value of having a camera that captures everything. The thing is so expensive, I'll need to buy a more expensive home defense gun.

After taking some no/low light training, I have a light on all my fighting pistols. Yeah, I sold my old holsters and bought light compatible versions. Zero regrets.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

You can't hit what you can't see (or at least identify as a hostile threat). I'll just leave it at that.

__________________
SIC SEMPER TYRANNIS

I have a Shield with a TLR6 as well… It was a backup gun for a while. The light is a bit anemic, but it’s enough for a close range encounter. The laser is the primary reason I got the TLR6, and while I’m not a fan of the switching (I like automatic activation such as the CTC versions better) it’s better than not having anything. Further, as you mentioned, training and (more importantly) practice can make it effective.

I have a little experience with the Veridian stuff, but not a lot. What I see from them is one end of the spectrum which is complete automaticity… they do all the work and you have no choice. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s a very absolute thing, and I’m not a big fan of being absolute. I can see where it could be valuable, particularly with the untrained.

The other end of the spectrum is the non-intuitive activation. This includes what I call digital (think TLR6,7,8,9,10), and mechanical (Surefire X300 series and Streamlight TLR1/2 series). I don’t like digital switching. It’s very difficult to manipulate reliably under stress, particularly if one wants to “control” the light. The mechanical switches are better, and can work very well when manipulated in a cognitive environment where we aren’t stressed enough that our decision-making ability is seriously compromised. They are also more appropriate if using night vision, or if one is tactically concerned with “white light ADs”… If you’re rightly concerned with that… you’re probably not needing my advice.

My “ideal” is the intuitive activation provided by CTC laser grips, the Streamlight Contour Switch, or the Surefire DG Switch. These switching methods allow intuitive/automatic activation under stress (training and practice still required… but less than other activation methods) and still allow control of the light in cognitive situations.

As for video on the gun… I’m torn. We should be decent people and live such that it doesn’t matter that a camera captures what we do. Body camera footage has saved a lot of good cops. It has convicted some bad cops, and that’s good. My real fear with body cameras is that they capture a specific view of an incident. For cops, they have infrastructure that can break down that video, investigate and obtain additional information, and provide context. Can we as individuals do that? If the gun-cam is used who gets the footage? My assumption is it becomes evidence. That means that you and your infrastructure - whatever it is or isn’t - doesn’t have the ability to interpret it first… You probably get it in discovery from the… prosecution.

Prosecution….

The fact is the American judicial system is still set up with the burden of proof on the prosecution. Without a lot of supporting infrastructure (cloud backup interior and exterior security cameras, etc.), I’m not sure that I want the prosecutor to have really good information about my use of lethal force with very little information about the circumstances around or leading up to it.

I’m no lawyer but gun cameras for self defense scares the snot out of me.

I put a light on every one of my pistols that has a rail. I've even been known to add a rail to a pistol just so I can add a light.

You make good points again, the burden of proof is a great one. I can see how an anti-2a prosecutor potentially could twist and contort a situation, especially in some states with some circumstances.

I suppose it's all situation dependent and there isn't a single solution that works right for all scenarios. You might have saved me some money here. I'll probably just keep questioning the need for a weapon camera.

What question? The op starts the thread by referring to a debate but asks no questions at all. All statements. I did not comment on the points he raised. I believe anything that makes one safer or more accurate can be beneficial. I was merely commenting on his presentment.

I was referring to the guy that got upset over your question. That’s why I quoted his rant over yours.

I'm not debating anything.... Just my opinion of the OP's thread.

First off I would say that the last paragraph would've been better as a leadin to the rest of his statement. Obviously bells and whistles are only as good as the abilities of the person pulling the trigger.

Secondly maybe including the red dot in the conversation is necessary to the pros and cons of addons.

The situation will be different for each of us. I live alone. I usually leave a small light on downstairs. Even if I didn't I know the layout of my house and feel the advantage is mine in a dark house. A flashlight negates that advantage and helps the intruder as to my whereabouts.

I have a Armalaser on a few of my firearms. It activates when you grip the firearm. No need to search for the on/off button.

The last thing I would say is that in a situation I'm not looking for the sights on my firearm. It's point and shoot. It's something I practice at the range.

Priceless.

Them are fightin' words 'round here

(joke)

I wanted to specifically focus on the bottom of the gun where weapon lights and lasers live. It seems like there's been a lot of threads discussing the merits of dots and similar optics over the recent past.

I tried the laser only solution for a time however in my case, there's a few scenarios where I'm outside at night while in or near urban areas where there's zero lighting. For that reason, I needed the light too.

Shooting at the range with the laser is fun, a lot like a red dot in some ways, except the gun doesn't have to be at eye level.

Since you brought up dots, it's worth noting that when compared to most lasers, often times the dot has less parallax with varrying distances. Usually (not always) the dot sits closer to the bore than a laser does and the dot is also centered with the bore and not offset to the left or right like some lasers are.

I’m going to avoid quoting just because it makes the post even longer than my wordy-ness would otherwise be.

I’ll first offer my thoughts on the red dot, or as I like to say based on regional terminology - a pistol optic…

Should a pistol optic be included (in terms of subjects) with lasers and lights?

No.

The reason for this is that a pistol optic is a primary sighting tool. It’s a 24hr precision aiming reference and as such is very different than a supporting accessory such as a laser (aiming reference in specific environmental and situational conditions - often non-precise and certainly not a primary sighting tool) or a WML (aid for situational awareness, threat identification and management, navigation, and to assist with the acquisition of an iron sight picture in low light).

That said, let’s talk about dots and accessories… because we can.

My last duty pistol (personally owned) before I retired at the end of September was a Staccato P with an Aimpoint ACRO P2 and a Surefire X400 Turbo with the green laser and DG switch. Had it not been for department policies it could easily have been my M&P 5” Pro Series with an Apex Barrel, thumb safety installed. and Trijicon SRO. The X400 would have been great on that gun.

Pistol optics are an advantage… If I was training a new shooter…. I’d train them on a dot. Then, when they had that down I’d introduce irons. For the boomers and the ego-driven nay-sayers I’ll say just keep your irons and leave the better shooting to people who actually want to improve. Yep - I said it and I stand by it even though I’ve carried iron sighted 1911s for the past several months because I can and because I no longer feel required to perform the best I possibly can… I’m carrying because I like guns and that’s good enough for me. If someone attacks me and my family my iron sighted .45, .38 Super, or 9mm will probably be ok. So will yours. You will probably be ok too… so don’t freak out. But also don’t pretend you’re best prepared if you’re not fully trained and running a dot. It’s the best there is right now.

Following my previous post, the next thought in my head is how do we integrate a pistol optic and iron sights and a laser… because I’m an advocate of iron sights on an optic-equipped pistol.

I think much of this discussion depends on use. For LE and specifically Special Weapons teams and hostage rescue or in specific close confines scenarios the pistol optic is the reliable always there sight. The laser (if activated depending on the pre-planned staging) is an “if I see it first’ way to increase speed of response in an environment (low or changing lighting conditions) where response time is increased due to diminished threat identification perception and (adding to the problem) diminished ability to obtain sight alignment… or an inability to bring the pistol to eye level at all.

For self defense it is much of the same, and the reality is that based on the context and distance of many self defense encounters, conventional sight alignment is difficult if not impossible. This doesn’t mean misses if one knows what they are doing, but the range isn’t like a two-way fight, and if one hasn’t the experience of a good amount of force-on-force or consistent (I learned from it enough to make a non-anecdotal opinion) gunfight experience, they can’t speak to really knowing what they are doing.

What does all my word salad mean?

The optic or irons are primary sights, but for many people, including those who don’t have a lot of experience, the laser is a big advantage.

For those who have a lot of skill, the pistol optic is the real 2020’s game changer and the laser, when integrated allows unconventional position shooting and faster “fairly” precise engagement at very close distrances where getting the pistol to eye level is slower than perceiving the laser dot.

The whole issue could have been summed up by just answering the thread title...

"Weapon lights and lasers on M&P pistols... useless???"

I fail to see why a simple YES (to me) or NO (I love them) or some such would cause so many wordy and confrontational replies :-)

I've thought about this quite a bit and plan to tackle the subject this spring or summer on my Shield Plus if I can get it to a point where it's reliable. It's currently at S&W warranty for a 4th time in a row.

Dot confusion between the optic and laser would likely be an issue if they're the same color and the laser is on while the operator decides to look through the optic.

So to make it work, on my Shield want to try...

Direct milled Optic cut for the 507K ACSS Green.. It's a simple dot with an exterior circle outside the field of view that minimizes dot searching when the dot itself is outside the field of view.

TLR6 light which has a red laser

Iron sights that co-witness lower 1/5 to lower 1/3... I'm leaning towards something that's simply blacked out. My concern is that anything with color or anything that glows would create too busy of a sight picture.

Because of parralax due to distance from the bore, the laser would be zeroed at a closer range than the optic.

Contrasting colors between the dot and the optic should allow the user to discriminate between the two when both are visible through the optic.

I didn't take it that way at all. And I have been a gun nut for near 30 years and I am an engineer and very analytical.

Sometimes you explain your thought process in entirety to prevent folks from misunderstanding you. You cover all the bases so someone doesn't say "what about this" when you already considered that.

Also, you must consider, these forums are open to folks of all walks of life and experiences. A well written post may be helpful to that one person that is very new to firearms use etc that may not be as knowledgeable as you are.

I have to admit he brought up several good points and observations I hadn't considered.

Thanks CP!

Rosewood

I got the impression from some post that if you have a WML, you must have it on.

Just because you have a weapon light doesn't mean you have to turn it on while you are investigating in your house (or any other situation). You can have a handheld light and leave both off until they are needed. You can move around stealthily and only use it when the threat is engaged. For that matter, you may not need to turn the WML on in every situation. You use it when it is needed. If I am checking out a noise, I have the pistol with the weapon mounted light low ready in my strong hand (light off) and the handheld light in the weak hand to illuminate my path etc until I determine the weapon is needed.

Rosewood

While I have no skin in this game I think it all boils down to choice. I don't have any weapon mounted lights or lasers. Sure, I have flashlights around the house but that's it.

I don't like anything attached to my handguns that wasn't there originally, excluding aftermarket sights if they help with my aging eyes. The only "laser" I ever considered was the one from Lasermax because it replaced the guide rod with no external modifications to the firearm. Unfortunately the company doesn't make any for the firearms I have. For EDC, IMO, attaching more externals to a handgun just adds weight and awkwardness, not to mention (as has already been mentioned) different holsters to accommodate.

I'm all for it if someone else wants to put this stuff on their handguns but for me, the KISS principle is perfect the older I get. Heck, one of my sons loves all the extra doodads and has them on some of his handguns (the military will do that!).

Good points to ponder by all of you, none of us is ever fully educated on everything!

The guns I have lights on are stored in the house in certain locations and are not in holsters or cases. My toter guns only wear night sights.

Rosewoods

My nightstand gun is a full sized first gen. 10shot M&P 45. I do have a Crimson Trace Laser Grip Module on it (given to me as a Christmas gift) and a now discontinued Crimson Trace Light Guard mounted as well. In the same drawer is a Streamlight bright yellow (so it's hard to lose) PolyTac-X 600 lumen flashlight. I live alone, so if I light someone up with the weapon mounted light, they should not be in the house anyway. Searches inside and outside the house are done with the Streamlight but if I bring my weapon up, my natural grip will activate the weapon mounted light as well. My LE career was before weapon mounted lights were readily available so my early training and practice has ingrained the Harries flashlight technique and it is automatic for me.
My "Alamo" gun is a Mossberg 590 Shockwave 12Ga with a 1000 lumen Streamlight TL-Racker Forend Light installed.
Weapon mounted lights have their uses but they are not my sole method of illumination.

The Firstlight liberator STT is a great option if you don't want to muzzle sweep anything you don't intend to destroy, and you can bring up your pistol and still have a two handed grip while still keeping the light pointed downrange.

It also works great for walking your dog and hanging on to the leash while having a light handy.

I have one by my bedside as another option.

It's about that time...

I put some Frank's Sauce on a PBJ. Man, was it good!!!

Others likely have a different point of view on this.

I am very familiar with my house - designed it, built it and have lived in it for 17 years. And yet I STILL manage to make noise, and bump into things, when I walk around at night.

So, this notion of "stealthily investigating a noise in my house" don't hunt for me. Further, if a BG is already in my house, he/she (a) is now somewhat accustomed to seeing in the dark while my "just awakened from slumber" eyes aren't, and (b) may have just as acute, or perhaps more acute hearing than I do (again, because I've just awakened from slumber).

So, at least for me, all of the plusses that others say are on the side of the homeowner aren't. I assess it as unlikely that I can sneak up on the BG and get the lowdown on him/her. If so, then the only value from a flashlight would be its deployment to temporarily blind the BG, assuming I'm lucky enough to see the BG AND shine the light in his/her eyes. But even that is a debatable likelihood.

I DO know the locations of the valuable stuff a BG might be looking for, but the BG doesn't. But then that's not an advantage for me, because the BG doesn't know the layout of my home. Besides, I'm less interested in preventing valuables from being stolen, and much more interested in protecting the lives of my loved ones (and me).

No camera-attached pistols for me. The camera records certain FACTS, but ignores others (like sounds), completely ignores the context in which events occur, and thus presents, as "obvious," certain courses of action that, at the time, were anything BUT obvious.

My bride and I (each 75) rehearse what to do in the event of a break-in. When I yell at her to do so, she is to immediately drop spread eagled on the bedroom floor and stay there until/unless I instruct otherwise. My puppy, who is essentially deaf, most likely will remain asleep in the laundry room. So, if there is a break-in, the only person roaming around is a BG.

Then the Castle Doctrine kicks in.

No remorse from me. I believe in life after death, so I'd just be arranging the BG's meeting with our Maker a bit sooner than might otherwise be the case.

I can't disagree with anything you've said.

When there's no family members that need to be collected, I can't think of a single good reason to go sneaking around the house looking for the intruder, regardless of what weapon attachments or handheld tools such as a flashlight are present.

In a home invasion, I believe the best thing to do is hide behind cover or in concealment, while armed, with 911 already on the phone. Perhaps a good role for the unarmed spouse is to handle the 911 call. Beyond that, sit there and wait. In this scenario, you've set a counter-ambush of sorts, and you have the advantage.

It's wise to have something that can be moved to block or slow the opening of a door. The bad guy doesn't know what room you're in and if the door is closed, he's going to have to open it. If it's a locked bedroom door, he's going to have to get through it. All of that takes time away from him and gives it to you.

When kids or family members need to be collected, the layout of some homes is poor from a defensive perspective... especially if the kids are downstairs and you're upstairs. I feel that with family members as part of the equation, having some kind of weapon light or flashlight is almost mandatory... what if there is an intruder but the person who comes around the corner is a family member? Obviously a lot of families practice what to do in a home invasion scenario but a lot don't.

After shooting for 50+ years with irons only, except for the scope on my hunting rifle, I purchased a Shield 9 1.0 with a CT LL-801G laser/light for EDC in 2015. Being totally unfamiliar with the use of the laser/light, although I already carried a small tactical light, I sought professional training on the laser/light's proper use. I asked around at my club and, almost unanimously, most of the members who used them directed me to the same training. I signed up for a class later that month. The training was excellent! One of the many things emphasized was that premature activation of the laser or light can make one an easy target for an attacker. Another caveat was to continue to carry my small tactical light. I have since added 2 new EDC pistols with red dots to my collection and took training on red dot use as well. Those trainings and frequent practice have improved my perceptions and abilities regarding defensive encounters. Just my opinion.

Edit to correct auto correct

A lot of really good thoughts in the last several posts... from people who prefer nothing but night sights to people who are using dots, lasers, and lights.

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer... there are too many variables and then add in personal preference.

Last night was a great example of how my decisions have been made for a while... I go through stages where I'll shoot Berettas, then maybe I feel bad for my Glocks and shoot them for a few months, then I go back to M&Ps, then my go-to 1911s... Since October of 2022 I've been shooting almost exclusively 1911 or 2011 pistols. Mostly 2011 until around August, and since then I've been back shooting mostly iron sighted 1911s. I've carried an iron sighted 1911 exclusively since the end of September. I feel confident that even though I don't perform as well as I do with a dot (I've got enough data to say that without doubt), I perform well enough to be confident and I absolutely love the 1911. Since I'm retired I do what I like.

But last night was the city's Christmas Parade... I went with my wife and our three kids (17, 11, and 8). So yesterday afternoon I pulled the Staccato C2 out of the safe and carefully cleaned and lubricated it. I'd confirmed zero with the Holosun EPS Carry that's mounted on it at the range a couple weeks ago. I put my Streamlight TLR-7A on the rail and then practiced draws for a while with the clothes I'd be wearing. I also switched out my normal hand-held light, a Surefire Stiletto, for a Surefire Tactician... The light has a bit more but not a ton... mostly because I knew the batteries were fresh in the Tactician.

I'd been doing some dry-fire presentations for the past few days and felt very comfortable with the dot. It was the first time carrying appendix in several months and I'm certainly not used to it any more... I may have to order a hip IWB for the C2... but it will be without the light. Most of the time I don't think a WML is necessary for a carry gun. The parade, or a trip to the movie theater, are examples of exceptions and for those I'll deal with the discomfort of the AIWB I already have.

For home defense I would love to use my Staccato with the Aimpoint ACRO and Surefire X400G Turbo and could just as easily use my 5" M&P 2.0 Pro series with Apex barrel, Trijicon SRO, and Streamlight TLR2, but my wife is used to Berettas and doesn't shoot dots so our HD pistol is my very well used M9A1 with a Streamlight TLR2G and the Contour switch. Using the right key combined with a bit of skateboard tape at the top of the frontstrap the M&P contour switch fits the Beretta almost perfectly.

As for hand-held lights I have several positioned all over the home. I feel that no matter what is or is not on the pistol, a flashlight gives the user the ability to manipulate the environment and ensure situational awareness, and one can't have too many...

Today I'll be back to a traditional-style 1911 in a TT Gunleather Reinforced IWB which is super comfortable. It may not be the most high-speed, but it's what I like, and it's enough.

I've got one handgun with a WML, an early .40 S&W M&P 1.0 with a TLR-1. It lives in my nightstand. I take it out a couple of times a year and put 50-100 rounds through it, taping over the lens so it doesn't get powder residue all over it, clean it, load it with fresh ammo, and put it back.

I've taken a few low/no-light classes with it as one of the guns I used, the other being one without a light to be shot with a hand-held flashlight. Cleaning a plate rack at night with the WML is a cheat code.

I'll be 72 next week. My daughter and grandson live with me. My house is small and there are small lamps that are kept on overnight so I'd be able to tell if that noise is them or someone else without the WML. If it's someone else, the splash from the WML at low ready will show what's in his hands and help him him decide that maybe he should go out the door he used to come in.

When I'm awake, I'm armed unless I'm somewhere it's prohibited. I also have a small flashlight clipped next to my pocket knife...and the light gets used more often than the knife, which surprised me when I started carrying it. At my age, I'm rarely out at night, and when I am it's in a relatively well-lit area like a parking lot. If it's at all dim where I am, the flashlight is in my off hand. I see no need for one on my carry gun.

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Regards,

Chuck

I have several Streamlight TLR-4 light/lasers on some of my handguns.
Rather have them than not have them. Compared to the cost of a new handgun & ammo they're not expensive to me.
I'm not shooting an unidentified sillouette in my own house. I'd rather get shot than shoot one of my own.

I've heard dozens of arguments pro & con, you can imagine any scenario where it's an advantage or disadvantage to have a light/laser. I'd rather have it and decide in the moment if it's needed.

Mine run off CR123 batteries, both of mine have very long shelf & run time but I swap batteries once/year, they're cheap.