you are taking what i wrote out of context.

of course the shotgun round will spread but not such a spread where you can just fire from the hip rambo style in home defense distance. you still need to aim the damn thing.

recoil is ok with you but may not be by a female shooter during this panic situation.

i agree that down the hallway, on a single target that doesn't shoot back, shotgun is king.

but if you are faced with bad guys that intend to do harm i prefer an ar15 over the shotty.

Armed Homeowner Shoots Robbers During Daytime Invasion (AZ) - YouTube

Good eye on catching that "Maryland compliant" fineprint / caveat at the end of the product description, Bobermo.

Well done indeed.

Cyphertext: I was told that "hostile" intent stopped immediately. PM Sent. Be Safe.

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I BACK OUR BLUE

How did I take anything out of context? You said it takes 25 yards for the shot to spread...I quoted your whole message. No one has said anything about shooting a shotgun from the hip except you. No one has assumed that you don't have to aim... But 9 .30 caliber pellets in a 4 inch circle center of mass has a much higher chance of stopping the threat with one shot, than one 5.56mm round. That is where the shotgun is more advantageous. At close range, such as home defense, it causes massive damage.


There are reduced recoil loads for 12 gauge, and the 20 gauge with the proper loads is effective as well. Hits with the same punch, just less payload. I would never advocate birdshot based on what I have read, but ViperMD has provided some first hand experience where results of actual shootings differ from gelatin tests.

What does the bad guy shooting back have to do with anything? Is the shotgun less effective if the bad guy shoots back? I am unaware of any evidence to support that position.

I would like to know more of the story on that video. Looked like it was gang or drug related, possibly hitting the wrong house. The firearm is a very small piece of the total home security package. The video cams are what gave that home owner the advantage there, not the AR. Had he grabbed a shotgun and put several rounds towards them, the outcome would have been the same. The thugs were not prepared for resistance.

Again, both have their place. If you are more comfortable with an AR, then use it. I have had a shotgun in my hand since I was knee high to a grasshopper, so that is what I tend to grab. If I were to take the fight outside, I would grab the rifle for more precision since my shot would spread too much at longer distance. However, living in suburbia, I have no reason to take the fight outside during a burglary. It is only property outside, and while in Texas I can legally shoot to defend property, the legal costs make it not worth it.

I'd want a flash hider on my HD AR.
And I just stick with M193 for range and home.
I stacked the IMI M-193 deep when it was cheap.

And fwiw I load my 12GA's with double 00. Both for home and woods. With slugs on the side.

Emory

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Hard To Kill

I don't know how it is late at night when you are asleep...But in my house if I have to get up and grab a gun...its going to be a 1911, so the shotgun/MSR debate is kinda mute in reality. I keep my rifles cased, the shotgun is in a scabbard on the wife's side. She will back me up as I head out with a 1911 and a couple of mags. But outside is a different story... LOL

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Grover Oathkeeper

I'm late to the party and your first link doesn't work anymore, but that second one wasn't a bad deal. An M&P OR with an Eotech 512.

I'm siding with you Quackertoo, especially as this was your first AR. The seller should insure they are depicting their products properly. Your card was charged already, and maybe the flash suppressor was in a bag of parts. You are not the expert here, they are supposed to be.

The only thing I would have done differently is told them I want my new AR NOW, as they screwed up, I need it for a training course and an event or two and I won't wait at the back of the line for the AR they already charged me for!

And I would have taken that argument right up the chain of command until I got to someone that would make it happen.

.

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Kirk / Spock 2020

You need a better shotgun that holds more than a couple shotgun shells.

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THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Amen brothers Maddmax and Cyphertext.

I have this handy:




So I can get to this:



Whatever I shoot, aiming is key. That's why I chose the Benelli. The ghost ring sight is easy and fast to use. Extended tube is loaded with 00 Buckshot, rifled slugs in the stock saddle.

The AR15 is last in line. The AR means that a local or regional disaster has occurred.

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-John

Yeah our Winnie 20ga Pump holds 8. I promise you, you wanna make somebody go potty in their pants. Let them be sneaking around and hear a pump shotgun and a 1911 slide. They will lay down at your feet!
Although JaPes's pistol makes me think a flashlight/strobe mounting on the Shotgun would work.

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Grover Oathkeeper

oooooh that is what I should have done. I may try to call customer service tomorrow and plead my case. Usually I'm very good at this sort of stuff when it comes to "making things right" but I'm a little bit less so when it comes to guns, maybe because women are so outnumbered at the stores, the range, everywhere in regards to gun from purchasing to practicing. Crazy. I mean, buying cars, or houses or whatever, I'm a tough negotiater, but somehow am somewhat less so in this instance . . . except last vehicle we bought . . . guess who they sent the d*mn thank you note to? My husband. I called 'em on it too. I said IF you waited for him to show up at your lot you'd be waiting a very long time as he is perfectly content as long as existing paid for vehicles get you from Point A to Point B and back to Point A again. They apologized . . . but still. I digress.

Qwackertoo, In my area, Gander Mountain pricing is typically high. Are you sure that you want the OR model or was that just the one you found available? There is nothing wrong with the OR model, except that you have to purchase sights to run it out of the box. You can use the Eotech and not worry about back up sites, but most would not do that.

From another thread, I am seeing that Kittery Trading Post has both the Sport and the OR in stock. You could purchase the OR and the Eotech separately from Kittery and be at $1380, vs $1499 at Gander. You may even find a different sight than the Eotech 512 that you would rather have. These may not even be the best prices. I know that Academy sells the OR for less than $900 when in stock.

I guess I am suggesting that you slow down and be patient. There are better deals to be had with a little bit of work. When I bought my Sport, they were hot sellers. Word had gotten out that they were a quality rifle at a low price point. It took me several weeks to find one at a good price, but with some patience and working with a local store, I was able to get one.

If Gander has returned your money there are some SW sport's on GB, NIB, with the lowest at 610$ 12 hrs left. As Cyphertext said: Be patient, make sure you get what YOU want at a "reasonable" price. As for gander, wrong gun, replace it TODAY or give me my money back! As far a negotiating gun purchase I believe in practice,practice,practice, get new safe, repeat!!. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

Maybe something like this one.. my new HD weapon.. My ORC is a little too far in the safe to get to quickly.. the UTAS-15 should get the job done with 15 rds of fury..

Attached Images

UTS-15-2.jpg (110.7 KB, 43 views)

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Jack C

So your plan is to shoot up the WHOLE neighborhood with an AR because a couple people "intend" to do harm ??? Ever seen what an ACTUAL FMJ 5.56 does coming out the barrel,distruction and the distance it can travel ???

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THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

This 870 was a recent conversion for a Sheriff Deputy friend of mine. He had an old department-issue wood-stock 870 with a new built-in flashlight forend. I added a $30 Hogue rubber grip and it turned out pretty darned nifty. That's a Streamlight flashlight with a pressure switch. It turns night to day.

He has stepped up his game. In his previous thread, he was going to use his M&P 15-22 as home defense because " i do not plan on firing on targets in vehicles or engaging an assasin-like bulglar that is wearing a bullet-proof vest.".

Once he bought the big boy AR, he started envisioning himself in a home invasion with multiple attackers wearing armor.

first time gun owner with m&p 15-22, should have gone with .223 instead?

After going back and finding this thread, it reminded me that ARGH has been a gun owner and shooter since January....OF THIS YEAR! Four months experience and he is advising on what type of firearm to use? He is now using an AR when four months ago he made statements like "reason i did not get a shotgun or larger caliber revolver was because of the decible levels blowing my familys' ear drums out. with the 12 gauge going off, it would probably shatter all the windows as well."

ARGH, my 14 year old son has more shooting experience than you. About 24x the amount of trigger time that you have.

I PERSONALLY have 2 sticks of Dynamite next to my Bed

2 just in case the 1st one dosent totally destroy my House, the 2nd one will...

i have GOOD Homeowners insurance

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--Stav--

I'm thinking all he's going to "see" is a Flash Bang going off and getting caught with a net.

NEVER EVER thought I'd say it... I'm now starting to REALISE WHY some people SHOULDN'T have weapons... He's been playing TOOOOOO many hostile video games for waaay to long and hitting instant replay.

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THIS WE'LL DEFEND ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Shhhhh... You guys will hurt the armchair ninja's feelings.

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-John

For ten years during the last ban, all ARs were made without the flash suppressor, and people seemed to get along fine. Unless you are doing a lot of shooting at night, with people shooting back at you, they are not that necessary. As for making things louder, you are thinking of a compensator, not the A1 or A2 flash suppressor.

New stock in at Gander . . . been watching all week long and clicked tonight and inventory was 17 items instead of the usual 8 all week.

Sport model. 729.00 bucks. NOT compliant to Maryland or New York or CA this time. I think 729 is a good price for this model. Considering the times we are in right now and the difficulty in even finding in stock locally. In different times it could probably be had for less.

Smith Wesson MP15 Sport Centerfire Rifle - Gander Mountain

So now with the Midway order and the ammo from the store event I went to a couple of weeks ago . . . now to find a decent red dot scope for not too much money. I finally admitted the error of my ways on my previous purchase to the husband last night. haha

It seems Gander will never get a description of a S&W model correct. The Sport does not have a chrome lined barrel...

You will enjoy that rifle. I like mine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28VnJu0uYKs


Silly rabbit, i said hollow point ammo.

i get a chuckle noticing the same people liking eachothers' posts over and over. The keyboard warriors.


Ar15 vs shotgun; keyboard warriors cannot debate. keyboard warriors resort to personal attacks.....and the internets will be internets, lol.

My statements/advice are based on facts ( things I have seen , been part of) not something I read, heard, or was told by a friend of an uncle's neighbor's girlfriend. I am not trying to make some one agree with my OPINION, only trying to give someone information that took me the last 40+ years to acquire. I do try to let someone know that something that is said such as " 25 auto as MAN STOPPER " is incorrect, since in real life the 30+ people that I have seen that were shot with a 25 auto, including head shots, survived with minimal discomfort. That my training involves more that shooting paper during the middle of the day. Anyone can like or not like my posts I do not care, but I will like a post that gives factual info. It bothers me when someone with minimal experience says something that is incorrect or could be dangerous to others reading it. I read more than I post, often I post only because info given could cause real injury to those reading it if it is taken as gospel. I like a post based on the POST not the poster. I continue to learn each day and I hope everyone can use the info hereor anywhere to improve tactics, awareness, remain safer. Be Safe,

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I BACK OUR BLUE

When a person has over 35 years of shooting experience, to include hunting and military experience, there is nothing to debate with a person who has four months of paper shooting experience.

With that said, I find it entertaining, so let's debate.

Draw a 4" circle. Within that circle, take a pencil and poke 9 holes in that circle. Run the pencil all the way through. Cut the circle out and place that circle on your chest, center mass and go look in the mirror. What you are now looking at is the pattern from my shotgun at 7 to 8 yards, using Winchester Super X shot fired from an 18.5" cylinder bore barrel. This is the longest shot I can take within my home.

After seeing that pattern on your chest, which firearm do you think will stop a threat quicker at the distance described? There is no firearm that can guarantee a one shot stop, but at close range, a 12 gauge loaded with 00 buck comes close. A 20 gauge loaded with a 3" shell of #2 buckshot would work well too, with 18 pellets that are smaller.

The shotgun is very destructive at close range. Look back to WW1, the trench warfare. Germany wanted to outlaw the shotgun due to the destructive effect it had in the trenches.

Just to show you that I am being honest about the effectiveness of my shotgun, let's say I had to take a shot at 25 yards. With my shotgun, and the same Winchester Super X load, I wouldn't take it. You will see all over the net that at 25 yards, 00 buck fired center mass on a silhouette, most pellets will stay within the silhouette. Let me say that again, most pellets. With my gun, because I have patterned it, I know that at 25 yards, most pellets equals 3 to 5 with that load. I would have to use a different load if I wanted to utilize the shotgun at that distance. My barrel is cut down, so I do not have the option of a choke. I have to rely on patterning with each load to know what it is capable of. Since I do not have a 25 yd shot within the walls of my home, it doesn't change what I use inside, but it is good to know the limits of the tool you are working with.

I still will stick with my 2 sticks of Dynamite...

I think my couch leg pattern at 7-8yds will be a BIT more aggressive than yer 9 pellets cyphertext...

Just Saying


HAHAHAHAHAHA....


and ARGH... I think cyphertext has trumped ya on his Post... game set and Match...

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--Stav--

I wanted to go back to this statement you made earlier. You can not depend on one shot to stop the fight. Not from your AR, not from your handgun, and not from your shotgun. There is no guarantee. However, when you take into account that 00 buck is 9 projectiles, it has a greater chance of providing the one shot stop.

From real experience while hunting, I have made shots on deer where they dropped instantly in their tracks. I have also made shots that were clean shots in the vitals, a good kill shot, yet the deer ran 50 or 100 yards before laying down.

I have also experienced having a boar hog taking 3 shots from my .30-06 and still having fight in him. All 3 shots were in the "kill zone" for a hog, but none of them ended him. It took a 9mm in the ear at point blank to take him out. I was out of ammo for the rifle at that point.

From these real world experiences that you can not get from simply shooting paper, I prefer to rely on the shotgun at close range. More projectiles means more wound channels which equals greater chance of stopping the threat.

You didn't borrow that from the Forestry Service, did ya? $5,000 Reward: Explosives stolen from Forest Service

Na....

they are my great Grandfathers...... I keep em next to my Bed....

No FUSE required....

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--Stav--

the amount of decades you played with gun powder is meaningless. gaining proficiency in a select firearm does not take years.

Man I wouldnt touch them with anything shorter than a 30ft pole...Those sticks have been around a while....definately no fuse required....am not sure they would take the motion of throwing LOL

it does look like a box of fun....I have a couple of big stumps that I would like removed.

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Grover Oathkeeper

12 guage vs AR 15 the Biden Challenge - YouTube

i'll keep things simple and show some evidence of my OPINION on why the AR15 will become, or already has become, the home defense weapon of choice for the modern time.

I thought you wanted to debate. If you think it does not take more than a few months to become proficient with a firearm, then you are truly ignorant.

Proficiency with a self defense firearm is not defined as shooting from a bench without any stress. Do you shoot IDPA? Three gun? Any type of timed and scored competition where the time provides a little stress? How about anything where you may run between stations to get the breathing and heart rate up, to simulate adrenaline and stress? Or how about hunting, where you are actually taking a life? Ever heard of buck fever? It is the adrenaline dump that happens when a hunter sees a big game animal that he wants to harvest. The heart beat quickens, rate of breath increases, some even begin to visibly shake. Hunters learn how to deal with this and to calm themselves before taking the shot. You learn that in the field, not at the bench. If you have not had experiences where you learned to bring these physiological and psychological responses under control, you are not proficient with the firearm for self defense.

That video is total garbage...taking firearm advice from Joe Biden is like taking firearm advice from, well, you. Joe Biden proved himself an idiot when he said to step on the porch and fire two blasts in the air and anyone with intent to harm will scatter. Well, now since she is using a double barrel she has to reload. She will also be charged with discharging a firearm in city limits, at a minimum. Can't really claim self defense and fear for your life when you don't even have a target.

Nobody knowledgeable, in this thread or otherwise, has said you don't have to aim a shotgun. They didn't aim, they missed. Take the AR and shoot it without aiming. I bet you get the same result.

Taking the woman that has not trained doesn't prove anything either. They didn't teach her how to shoulder the shotgun. Since it was not shouldered, it really was not being aimed correctly. If you are not trained on proper use, you will get the same results. Same with the AR...ok, she used a red dot and pulled a trigger and managed to hit, but with no grouping. Take my wife and she hits 4" clay discs that are moving at about 40 mph with her shotgun. She knows how to use it.

Let's put it this way...you and Japes are in the same general locale I believe. You guys should meet at the range, and do a test. Seven yards, 5 seconds, see who puts more hits on target...Japes with his Benelli Nova, or you with your AR. I put my money on Japes in that scenario.

Now back up the target to 50 yards....even though I don't think you know come 'ere from sick 'em, I would put my money on you in that scenario.

BaJeeezus!!
No Arrgh (?) you are correct, it does not take a lifetime of shooting to become proficient with a particular firearm. Proficiency just means you have reached a basic operating level. Like a drivers license means you are proficient at driving, it doesn't mean you can go down to the local track and race, that is something that is learned through experience.

Getting your body truly in rhythm with your shooting takes a lifetime of practice. Getting your breathing and your trigger pull together and if your running and gunning that is even harder. I learned to shoot at a young age and after practice became a good shot at a young age. I have always shot very well, but in that last 10 years I have made great gains in my ability. So don't tell me that shooting for 35 years doesn't come with benefits of increased knowledge, skill and wherewithal concerning loading, shooting and firearms.



My sport at 300 yards



My Sport at 100 yards
I would bet on Japes also!!!

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Grover Oathkeeper

Nice weather we are having fellas

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Aim small miss small

I wish i could do that. Someday i hope i can. At the moment am just working on running and gunning and getting hits on target as soon as possible. ill work on closing my groupings down the road

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Aim small miss small

Get more trigger time, then I'll assign your opinion some credibility.

Now I didn't attack you personally, but you seem to take umbrage at the net ninja label. If it smells like poop...

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-John

Hey I'm not a ninja, I dont own any headbands, or those ninja clothes. The only ninja words I know are toyota, honda, samurai, sushi and karate. I dont have any tactical clothing. But I do have a shooting table, chair, target and gongs stands, shooting rests and targets in my truck all the time. I use them too often to waste my time unloading them. Sooooo, if that makes me a shooting chair ninja, well, so be it!!!

P.S. I also have hearing and eye protection, gongs and shooting bags.

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Grover Oathkeeper

Quackertoo, did you get your Sport?