This crosses two genre; ARs and self-defense. I think it fits best here because the discussion deals specifically with the AR style gun.


It's quite common to hear someone list "home defense" as one reason they buy their AR. I really don't care why anyone buys a gun, just the fact that you want one is reason enough for me. Still, the idea of what to use for home defense is a valid topic and deserves some thought.

Of the three basic styles of guns, handgun, shotgun and rifle, the rifle is the last one I'd pick for home defense. While it is certainly an effective tool, I don't think it's the best for home defense and here's why I say that:

It's big. The smallest rifle is still larger than a handgun. This makes it difficult to move around a home. However, you shouldn't be moving around anyway. Barricade and wait for the cops.

It takes two hands. It could be beneficial to have a hand free to call 911. If you're barricaded, then the gun could be held up by the barricade as you made the call.

It has a tremendous chance of over-penetration. This could kill the bad guy and then continue on to kill an innocent. That's bad.

It's loud! If you've never fired a .223 indoors, without hearing protection, don't. You will have permanent hearing loss. The biggest effect of this is that it will incapacitate you. Trust me, shooting a .223 indoors, without hearing protection is a really bad idea.

My first pick would be the shotgun. Why? Because it's easy to handle and very powerful. Yes, it's loud too, but not as loud as a .223Rem. The chances of over penetration are greatly reduced with the right load. But the largest benefit is multiple hits on the bad guy with one shot. Don't be fooled, the shotgun must still be aimed. However, if it is aimed properly, and you're using #4 shot, this means the bad guy will be hit ~150 times with a 1 1/8oz load. That's a lot of stopping.

Now, in another thread, this was brought up:
What? No, I don't think so. Then again, it may depend on the type of shell you have loaded. I have a hard time believing that an 1 1/8oz of #4 shot will penetrate more than a 5.56 NATO round.


The concept of a faster reload, while not to be overlooked, is not high on my list of necessities. Having 7 rounds of #4 shot loaded up should be more than enough to handle any intruder. Unless you're expecting to fight off the advancing zombie hoards. If you're really preparing for that, this discussion is moot.

Handgun? Yeah, a handgun eliminates several problems. They're small and require only one hand. If you have to move around, they are the most mobile. They do pack the smallest punch though.

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Freedom isn't free.

Sidearm w/light. Easy to maneuver, fifteen to seventeen rounds to bring to the fight. Less over penetration than an AR.

i own handguns and an ar 15, but if i heard glass break in the middle of the night the gun i would grab is my 870.

Rastoff:

All very good points. I will point out that Gunsite did a study several years ago using 5.56 hollow point loads and 9mm hollow point loads.

They found that the typical "Varmint" load, back then the best one was considered the Federal Blitz round, also highly regarded for self-defense where use of hollow points is not limited or prohibited, penetrated less than the pistol rounds.

A similar result is documented in the article by Bob Taubert, retired FBI agent, who was with the FBI HRT Team for many years. That article dealt with use of pistol caliber ammo in sub guns, but the lessons are equally applicable.

I was pretty amazed way back when Gunsite did the test that the 9mm penetrated more than the more effective carbine round.

Here is the Taubert article:

About .223 Penetration

That said, the penetration issue is not the only issue to consider, and you have made great points. Very good consideration of a variety of factors that we all need to think about to make up our minds.

Good show.

Shawn

Interesting article Shawn. I found this line most spectacular, "Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets." That is completely different than what I've seen in my own unscientific testing and what I've read here: The Box O' Truth #1 - The Original Box O' Truth - Page 1


Let me see if I can find the pictures of what I shot...

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Freedom isn't free.

No I'm not expecting zombies but that's the problem. ..I don't know what I am expecting. I can tell you that I don't know if 7 rounds of #4 will be enough. Because I don't know what to expect. I do know that if a shotgun jams on the 1st round it's harder to clear than an AR.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Apparently I didn't take or didn't save or can't find the pictures I was looking for.

Anyway, what I had done was shoot a hard drive. A friend and I took an old computer hard drive out and blasted it with an M1 Garand, Mini-14, 1911 and a Glock 22. As expected, the Garand did the most devastation. The Glock had the least penetration. The Mini-14 just punched small holes and mostly went straight through.

When it comes to penetration, the results are highly subjective. The medium used to test can have very different results. Obviously, a hard drive is not the right test subject (it was fun to shoot though). That's why I like the Box O Truth. They used dry wall and ply wood. Those are common household items that are the real materials found in a house and are real concerns when talking over penetration and home defense.

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Freedom isn't free.

You posted while I was typing my last post.

Good point, but I'm not sure I agree. Why do you say a shotgun would be harder to clear? When you say "jam" what do you mean? Type I, II or III? Maybe something else?

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Freedom isn't free.

Precisely.Home defense can be anything from a suburban breakin with an alarm system that calls the cops and you can barricade behind a locked bedroom door to...who knows? TEOTWAWKI?

If the second, when it happens its a little late to run down to the sporting goods store and upgrade.

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Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
45 ACP 157.0 dB

12ga 18" barrel 161.50dB

.223 55GR. Commercial load 18" barrel 155.5dB

FreeHearingTest.com - Gunfire Noise Levels

Rastoff is going to be the Rabbit Hole Master of Ceremonies.

For the rural dwellers, over penetration of an exterior wall may not be an issue. For those that live in single family and multi family suburban sprawl, over penetration is an issue. Folks that live in densely populated urban areas face a different set of criteria. IMO, go with whichever firearm suits your particular physical abilities, the unique location and construction of your residence, and the one you get to practice with the most often.

I live in the suburban sprawl of Lake Zurich, Illinois. Notoriously anti-2nd Amendment Cook County is literally 5 miles down the road. Outdoor ranges are not within driving range. I don't have the opportunity for quality practice with long guns. There are a few indoor ranges, but I have to make do with static target practice. I only get to practice dynamic handgun drills a few times a year on a friend's cousin's farm a few hours away.

I do my best to practice dynamic handgun practice via full metal, gas blow-back, semi-auto airsoft pistols. The pistols mimic the size, exterior controls, and action of their center fire inspirations. I have a Glock 17, Beretta 92, and Sig 226 airsoft guns. I'll set up target traps in the garage to practice shooting from dynamic positions. I'll set up cardboard box target traps in various rooms in the house to simulate indoor defensive situations.

I don't get to practice proper recoil management, but everything else is as close as it can get. It maximizes the real live fire practice time I can get only a few times a year at the farm.

Those three handguns are what I get to practice with the most often. I keep a Glock 17 in a quick access safe. First mag is 19 rounds of frangible. Backup mag is hollow point. I keep a set of electronic muffs by the quick access safe and practice putting them on whenever I wake up at night to make it muscle memory. I wish I could equip my HD pistol with a silencer, but this is Illinois .

Other than a lack of a silencer, that Glock 17 is equipped with every unfair advantage I find useful. It comes with me on every trip to the range.

• Extended threaded match barrel.
• Compensator.
• TLR-4 Light/Laser
• Trijicon HD Night Sights
• Tuned trigger.

I'm thinking of getting the slide milled and fit a Trijicon RMR for an even bigger unfair advantage.

This is what works for my particular situation. This is the type of handgun I get the most practice on.

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-John

That's some interesting data Phil. I would not have thought that.

As an avid Trap shooter, I shoot shotguns all the time. I'm around shotguns of all varieties. I would never have thought a shotgun was louder than a .223, but then I'm not usually around 18" barrels.

I made a painful discovery about the .223 once. When I was setting up this test:


I was excited to get rolling with the shooting. I forgot to put my ear plugs in. The first shot was painful. While this was not inside, it was under a cover. I can tell you that it felt much worse than any shotgun I've ever shot. I don't know why it was so painful, I just know it was.

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Freedom isn't free.

My AR-15 resides on my wife's side of the bed. All she needs to do is sit with the bed between her and the door with the green dot at the ready.

She can handle the AR better than a shotgun or handgun, so that's why it's a home defense gun in our case.

As far as the noise, I'd rather shoot the AR-15 indoors than my 681.

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- The Federalist #46 -

I accept! This is what happens when you're stuck at home.

This is a good point John, I'm glad you brought it up. If you can't practice with your intended self-defense tool, it's viability drops significantly.

This is another good idea. I'm going to incorporate this into my Personal Protection Inside the Home class. Even if you can't practice with live rounds, just moving and aiming with a gun can be quite useful.

I guess my ready access to a live outdoor range makes me not think about practice solutions like this.

I would like to reiterate, practice is very important. I'd rather have a person practice with their rifle and deal with some of the limitations than not practice with something else and be completely unprepared should the need arise.

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Freedom isn't free.

That's where I'm lucky...I can shoot a 100 yd target safely without leaving my property.

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Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

My heaviest AR is still shorter and lighter than my shotgun.

LE entry teams went away from 9MM subguns to AR Carbines years ago after doing quite extensive penetration testing, finding the 9mm consistently out penetrated the 223.

Which to you want to shoot at a bad guy holding a knife to a loved one's throat?

If you cannot shoot an AR one handed you need to practice more.

Being a zoomie it is quite possible you are basing your assessments on FMJ 223. There are other types of ammo available now that are very effective in soft targets yet fragment rapidly in harder materials.

Training and the right tool for the job. Do not fall in to the, If your only tool is a hammer everything starts to look like a nail, trap.

Not necessarily. Sometimes old farts with physical limitations believe in protecting ourselves and families too. I know I do and there is no way I could effectively handle an AR one handed for more than 5 seconds, 10 at most.

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Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

Some good reads on ammo choice and wound ballistics. There is one for 2) OVERPENETRATION INSIDE THE HOME

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

If you search through the Box Of Truth you can see some of their test done on sheetrock and penetration of various rounds.

The Box O' Truth - The Box O' Truth

For me if need arises which I hope it never does, I will use what I have at hand. Being it a AR with up to 100 round magazine, you never know how many BG's there will be, a 7 round 12 ga., a 7 round BG .380 or up to my carry .45 or any of the 9mm, .40 S&W or even any of my C&R handguns. I'm not picky I'll use what's at hand. I don't need to worry about neighbors. As for the noise I'll deal with that after words. One advantage of a long gun is if it malfunctions you have a nice club, and I would never advance through a doorway with the long barrel of a long gun first. As for 12 ga. the #1 buck is recommended, but you need to make up you own mind on shot choice.

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Psalm 23:4

For starters:
Tuck the buttstock under your arm, hold the pistol grip, and use the force/point shooting techniques.
To charge it hook the latch of the charging handle on your belt or in a pocket and push down on the pistol grip.

When the poo is flying and the adrenaline flowing you may surprise yourself. If you have to pull a loved one to safety, carry the grandchild in your off hand, or any of a multitude of other task requiring the use of a hand while covering the bad guy it would be nice to know in advance how. Also one should try to work the rifle with only the weak hand should the strong hand become injured.

If you think the AR is hard try it with a pump shotgun.

My$.02, take it for what it is worth.

Winchester Mod 12 12 ga...with a seven shot mag...front heavy when loaded, which is my problem.

I still have all my pieces/parts, and they all work, but after 5 heart attacks and emphysema the strength/endurance just ain't what it used to be...

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Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

I am also in the "grab the shotgun first" crowd. Mainly because I have hunted with one since I was a kid. I have fired more rounds through a shotgun than any other type of firearm I have, to include .22lr.

The second reason is because of payload. I use 00 buck. With one pull of the trigger, I am delivering nine, .30 caliber projectiles towards the target, and with the longest shot in my house, the spread is only about the size of a softball. I'm not going to see what is making the noise, that is the dogs job. I'm going to be at the end of my hallway, waiting for whatever it to come to me.

That goes back to "It depends on what your definition of home defense is"...see above. That's great strategy for a burglar in the suburbs with a 911 response in reasonable time.

It sucks in a rural area where 1). Your closest deputy is at least 30 minutes away. 2)....or its SHTF time.

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Bob | KM4DEO
Sport | Glock 22

My strategy is to ALWAYS try to keep hearing protection available. That said, sometimes circumstances dictate otherwise.

My situation is fluid - Sometimes we're at home and have multiple types of firearms available. Other times we're either working a camp host gig (45 minute deputy response time) or traveling for pleasure. Governor for inside the trailer, with PDX1. I also have a SCAR 16. This would be for fending off a group of bad guys (robbery, intimidation of guests, etc). Finally, I have my CCW Bodyguard .380.

I must admit, it pains me to out myself in public this way. I doubt any of my guests would ever guess that their host is armed.

My biggest fear is that if I have to use one of our guns, it'll traumatize our dog

I asked the wife to cover his ears in case an emergency occurs...

I for one, would like to hear more about the scenario of employing the use of a SCAR 16 when your guests are being "intimidated" by a group of bad guys.

Three words. Or two words and a number, however you want to look at it:

12-gauge shotgun.

More words:

My current HD weapon is a Mossberg 930SPX, loaded alternately with 00 and #4. Eight or nine shots, depending on if you keep one in the chamber. Easy to work (and find in the dark) tang safety. Ghost ring rear sight and an Elzetta 900 lumen light out on the end with constant on and strobe mode. The light isn't shown in this photo.

Backup is a Colt 1911.

I figure that ought to do it.

Just an excuse to keep the SCAR around...

Choose the platform that you have the most training with. It's all about what you hit, not what you hit it with.

The AR stays in the safe. On the night stand is my 1911 equipped with this. STL-900 Tactical Light and Laser The strobe is very disorienting.

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State of Jefferson
Jim

Best tool for the job.

Anything effective penetrates common building materials. Anyone that thinks a handgun or shotgun won't is dreaming.

Long gun should be the primary, always. Whether a shotgun or carbine the advantages are many and immense over a hand gun.

A 5.56 AR-15 has the energy of a 44 Mag at close range and usually has the same or less penetration than defensive loads in a handgun or shotgun. The ease of use, low recoil, capacity, and the effectiveness of the cartridge at close range make it a winner for me.

Having something is always better than nothing.

It's good to have options, but the handguns will always be relegated to back up duty in the home.

I figure the best gun for the job is the gun I have with me. For home protection... If I have pants on there's either a LCP or 642 in the pocket whether I'm mowing the lawn, watching TV or whatever, there's a gun in the pocket. In the bedroom there's a 12ga Winchester Defender loaded with 00 on the side of the bed and a Colt 1911 on the nightstand. My AR will be in the safe so that puts it out of the fight. I would have no hesitation or reluctance to use an AR for home defense, but for up close work if a 12ga is an option there are no other options, IMO.

My line of defense starts with my 870, would be a pistol, but I am under 21, then my M&P-15, but only because I have 6 30 round magazines full at all times, mainly because I shoot all 6 several times every weekend, but also in case of an emergency that may arise.

db is just one measure of sound. Another is pitch or frequency. Generally smaller faster moving objects are higher pitched and the sound generated by the faster object impacts your ear over a shorter period. That higher pitched sound impacting your ear over a shorter time can be more painful.

Think of the sound difference between a 125cc 2 cycle and 500cc 4 cycle engine. There is definitely a difference in sound quality.

I have a Mossberg 590 Special Purpose pump for my primary HD long gun. Handguns are a backup whenever I have access to a long gun. We live in the country, so I also have a CAR-15 fitted with a Leupold VX-II 1x4 for longer range accuracy. I wouldn't hesitate to use the CAR inside my home, if it became necessary, however, IMO the shotgun is simply better suited for my HD purpose.

As has been noted here, a 12g 00 load will penetrate walls much better than 55gr .223, FMJ or HP. Big, medium velocity projectiles are the worst over-penetrators and 8-12 00 balls pretty much act as one big projectile at close range.

In my humble opinion, the great advantages of an AR-type rifle would be the easy use of a low light friendly optic and ease of follow up shots. It would absolutely be loud and with anything less than a Commando-style 5" flash hider would create quite the fireball.

With that said, my "bump in the night" gun is a Glock 34 with a mounted light and tritium sights. I simply can't store and secure a long gun in my bedroom right now. If we had a disaster in my area, I have an AR-like rifle with a Meprolight M21 holographic optic and Streamlight. I also have a Mossberg 500 with a flashlight mount + Streamlight but no optic. A lengthy power outage (or worse) and one or both of these would come out. My wife's Kimber 1911 with factory tritiums would too.

I think the 5.56/.223 AR-15 is a good home defense weapon. The caliber is an effective man stopper, using the right ammo limits over penetration over many other rounds. Capacity is outstanding. As a long gun, it's relatively light and easy to maneuver/aim.

On penetration though... to this point in time, they haven't developed a round that will penetrate a human to the necessary levels to stop them that won't penetrate a few pieces of sheetrock as well. It just has to be that way - if it's going to penetrate deep enough to stop a man, it's going to penetrate walls.

I think that's true of many rifles, but not military style carbines.

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686/M&P9 Pro/M&P15X/M&P15-22

There's the 0311 in you, talking.

Well, the 0331 in me talking wouldn't have been very relevant.

My Sport is sitting in the corner of my closet loaded with Hornady TAPs. My primary HD gun is my 1911. I figure if 8 rounds of .45acp can't handle what is being thrown my way, I'm in a world of hurt and I'm going to need a bunch more ammo.....thus the AR as a backup.

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Still carrying my S&W 642

Colt 6920 (sorry not a S&W), Surefire light mounted on the Knights rail, Eotech w/ARMS buis, SOPMOD stock, 30rd mag. When the lights go out, things go "bump" in the night and the dog alerts this is my first choice. My handgun is my back up. But that's just me with a bit of life experiences that've helped me learn.

We are all free to make our own choices, I won't disregard another's choice for their situation.

Getting back to Rastoff's original question, my Sport is definitely lighter and smaller than my HD 870, but obviously larger than any handgun I have. A Sport is almost exactly the same size and weight as my M1 Carbine. Where the Sport (or any M4 clone) bests my 870 is in ergonomics. A pistol grip makes the Sport easier to handle.

Yes, the AR is larger than a pistol, but it is smaller than most pump shotguns. I agree with Rastoff that the best strategy is to barricade and wait for the cavalry. However, I am a fairly new AR owner and I still like the 870 as it is what I am most familiar with.

Check out some of the results of the "Box o' Truth" by "Old Painless".
The Box O' Truth - Ammo Penetration Testing

As OP likes to remind us "Rifles>Handguns", and I know I can hit faster and more accurately with a red-dot sighted AR than most any handgun I have. And to steal a line from Clint Smith, I have pistols handy so I can get to my rifle.

ETA Somewhere on the Thunder Ranch website, or maybe on one of Clint's videos, he has two men standing side by side in a shoot-house, one with a pistol held at high ready, one with an AR carbine shouldered. He points out that the muzzles of both guns are about the same distance from the body of the operators in that particular article, point being that he feels that it is not any harder to maneuver a carbine through a shoot-house than a pistol. I have no personal experience, so I won't try to claim any. But I know in a situation where I may be putting my life on the line, I want more gun, not less.

BTW, my personal go to HD weapon is a 10.5" bbl. AR with EoTech and suppressor. Don't want to be losing my hearing, y'know.
****** cellphone pic, you get the idea:


Use what works best for you and your situation.

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Well here is my thing i find nothing wrong with an Ar-15 for home defense.This is subjective what it really comes down to is what your comfort level is with a certain firearm at any certain time.

Ill share what works very well for me i have 8 years and counting in the infantry 95% of my weapons training is with an M4 with an ACOG
so it was a natural choice to get one for personal use my current setup is very close to what i had in combat the only difference is that i have a 4-12 power scope. when my rifle is in the high ready i can scan and walk and move very well with the scope on 4 power.

There was no way in hell that i was going on house clearing missions with an Acog with one eye shut and the other open walking and scanning when it came time to clear rooms.

I am not justifying using a 4 power scope for home defense i'm just saying that is what works for me cause of my training. shooting without ear protection is the least of my problems when the time comes when you might have to take take a life.

My home defense is my bone stock m&p15 with irons bc in a breakin you might not think to turn on a powered optic, then my Taurus pt917 9mm then a ruger 380. Ar is the first thing I grab and I spent ten years in army with combat deployment so I'm very affective with it.

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Were gonna need a bigger boat!

If you are using an AR-15 with optics, you should probably look at something with long battery life, like Aimpoint. Something that the battery power can be measured in years, so that you can leave it on at all times.

Yeah, I love my EOTech, but if my AR were my home defense gun, I'd definitely go with an Aimpoint. Turn it on, mount to gun, sight in at the range, change batteries three years later. I do prefer the EOTech reticle, but the "always on" dot would be just fine.

My eyes are just too weak at this point to use irons reliably.

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Freedom isn't free.

I have to go along with the idea that a handgun is the most versitile choice. Sound amplifing ear protection is indicated regardless of what firearm you choose.

Despite having used a short barreled shotgun for decades, it does have disadvantages for home defense: when used with proper ammunition (buckshot or slugs)* it readily penetrates walls with sufficent retained energy to cause serious bodily injury. It's long, heavy and has significant recoil: a 9 lb shotgun delivers 21.5 ft/lbs of recoil with full power ammunition, 18.5 ft/lbs with low recoil/tactical ammunition. Generally more affordable than the other choices and more acceptable to most jurors-if you don't buy out the tactical toy store.

By contrast, as noted, with proper ammunition 5.56mm/.223 ammo penetrates less building material than duty pistol ammunition. It's shorter and lighter than the shotgun, recoil is 3.5 ft/lbs and in Mforgery dress the stock length is instantly adjustable for large and small users. The negatives are price and the Evil Black Rifle perception should you end up in court. One counter to the EBR label is to find out if LLEA uses them and bring that (and why) out when their officers are on the stand.

* Box o Truth shows that even birdshot passes through drywall interior walls with enough retained velocity to potentially cause serious bodily injury/death. On the other hand, since we're trying to penetrate the rib cage, birdshot may not penetrate sufficiently unless the attacker is far closer than you want them to be. Remember, even with zero blood pressure, the body stores enough oxygen for at least 10 seconds of willfully directed activity. That's a lot of slicing and dicing if they started 10 feet away.

AR SBR is a great choice for home defense. Depending on where you live the 16" barrel might be okay or not.

Over penetration is always a concern, no matter if rifle or handgun. Just train others to lay low until you give 'em the signal. That gives you the chance to shoot the intruder(s) at chest height.

It's always a pain and you should always have a plan B and C if things don't work out...

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Jorge

Just a side note on my use of an EoTech on my AR- it's really not much time to turn it on. The drill is something like this: grab gun, charge, right thumb stabs button on optic 3-4 times to get it up to proper brightness, go to high ready or firing position.

I've used EoTech 512's for years now, and have had 3-4 units on different guns at different times. I've only had one that had battery corrosion issues, and replacement of the battery cover fixed that.

But, what non-users may not realize is that at HD ranges, you hardly need to turn on the unit at all. The sight is like a giant ghost ring when used in conjunction with the front sight, and is plenty good enough to make 10 ring hits at 10 yds or less. My house is small, roughly 30 by 40 feet, 1200 sq. ft. total, so having 100 yd accuracy is not required for my HD needs. And, I do a check on my battery powered optics on a regular basis, so I probably won't get caught with a dead optic. But plan B is in place, and I am confident of good results with it.

Now back to the subject at hand...

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ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Shotguns (loaded with proper self defense ammunition) and handguns have more penetration than most 5.56 rounds.

An AR is just as easy to handle.

Not necessarily. Most experts advise against using bird shot for home defense. Stick with #4 BUCKSHOT at a minimum, preferably #1 Buckshot.


While 99% of scenarios there wont be a reload needed, you are missing one of the main points of a reload. In case of a gun jam, the quickest way to get the gun back into action is to discard the old magazine, clear the weapon, and insert a new magazine.

The AR holds 30 rounds, is very accurate, has less over penetration, is easy to manipulate, very easy to configure for home defense with a red dot and flash light. It also penetrates body armor, if the perp(s) is wearing it. Based on my real world life experiences, the AR15 is the best home defense gun, followed by the shotgun, and then distantly by a handgun.

If you come out of the shower to your wife screaming and an intruder holding a knife to her throat, would you want to take that shot with a shotgun or pistol? I can hit a human head size target out to 200 yards with nothing more than an Aimpoint.

I'll throw a monkey wrench into this. As stated earlier, a pistol works for my bump in the night HD protection due to my overall circumstances and ability to train. I'm not saying that my AR or Shotgun won't be used. If I had the time to be more proactive than reactive, I'll sling one over my shoulder.

Now for the monkey-wrench.



I have had multiple opportunities to fondle an IWI tavor. I've been lucky enough to put a few rounds downrange thanks to a very friendly fellow firearms enthusiast. The 16.5" barreled bullpup is very compact and easy to handle. The weight distribution makes it very easy to keep shouldered and maneuver. When shouldered I can hold it easily with one hand. The trigger isn't the best. I'm betting that an AR-15 is more accurate over longer distances.

2-Hawk's observation that at HD ranges, combat effective hits are what counts not tight little groups rings true to me. If I were to use a rifle for my primary bump in the night defense, it would be the Tavor.

Now I'm just waiting for the civilian semi-auto model early adopters to finish alpha-testing (guinea-pig) the Tavors to work out all the unforseen kinks. I'm also waiting for a used one to pop up locally.

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-John