AR as a home defense gun?

This crosses two genre; ARs and self-defense. I think it fits best here because the discussion deals specifically with the AR style gun.


It's quite common to hear someone list "home defense" as one reason they buy their AR. I really don't care why anyone buys a gun, just the fact that you want one is reason enough for me. Still, the idea of what to use for home defense is a valid topic and deserves some thought.

Of the three basic styles of guns, handgun, shotgun and rifle, the rifle is the last one I'd pick for home defense. While it is certainly an effective tool, I don't think it's the best for home defense and here's why I say that:

It's big. The smallest rifle is still larger than a handgun. This makes it difficult to move around a home. However, you shouldn't be moving around anyway. Barricade and wait for the cops.

It takes two hands. It could be beneficial to have a hand free to call 911. If you're barricaded, then the gun could be held up by the barricade as you made the call.

It has a tremendous chance of over-penetration. This could kill the bad guy and then continue on to kill an innocent. That's bad.

It's loud! If you've never fired a .223 indoors, without hearing protection, don't. You will have permanent hearing loss. The biggest effect of this is that it will incapacitate you. Trust me, shooting a .223 indoors, without hearing protection is a really bad idea.

My first pick would be the shotgun. Why? Because it's easy to handle and very powerful. Yes, it's loud too, but not as loud as a .223Rem. The chances of over penetration are greatly reduced with the right load. But the largest benefit is multiple hits on the bad guy with one shot. Don't be fooled, the shotgun must still be aimed. However, if it is aimed properly, and you're using #4 shot, this means the bad guy will be hit ~150 times with a 1 1/8oz load. That's a lot of stopping.

Now, in another thread, this was brought up:

Arik said:

shotgun over penetrates more than a 5.56

Click to expand...

What? No, I don't think so. Then again, it may depend on the type of shell you have loaded. I have a hard time believing that an 1 1/8oz of #4 shot will penetrate more than a 5.56 NATO round.

Arik said:

.....and faster reload

Click to expand...

The concept of a faster reload, while not to be overlooked, is not high on my list of necessities. Having 7 rounds of #4 shot loaded up should be more than enough to handle any intruder. Unless you're expecting to fight off the advancing zombie hoards. If you're really preparing for that, this discussion is moot.

Handgun? Yeah, a handgun eliminates several problems. They're small and require only one hand. If you have to move around, they are the most mobile. They do pack the smallest punch though.

Sidearm w/light. Easy to maneuver, fifteen to seventeen rounds to bring to the fight. Less over penetration than an AR.

i own handguns and an ar 15, but if i heard glass break in the middle of the night the gun i would grab is my 870.

Rastoff:

All very good points. I will point out that Gunsite did a study several years ago using 5.56 hollow point loads and 9mm hollow point loads.

They found that the typical "Varmint" load, back then the best one was considered the Federal Blitz round, also highly regarded for self-defense where use of hollow points is not limited or prohibited, penetrated less than the pistol rounds.

A similar result is documented in the article by Bob Taubert, retired FBI agent, who was with the FBI HRT Team for many years. That article dealt with use of pistol caliber ammo in sub guns, but the lessons are equally applicable.

I was pretty amazed way back when Gunsite did the test that the 9mm penetrated more than the more effective carbine round.

Here is the Taubert article:

About .223 Penetration

That said, the penetration issue is not the only issue to consider, and you have made great points. Very good consideration of a variety of factors that we all need to think about to make up our minds.

Good show.

Shawn

Interesting article Shawn. I found this line most spectacular, "Bottom Line: In every test, with the exception of soft body armor, which none of the SMG fired rounds defeated, the .223 penetrated less on average than any of the pistol bullets." That is completely different than what I've seen in my own unscientific testing and what I've read here: The Box O' Truth #1 - The Original Box O' Truth - Page 1


Let me see if I can find the pictures of what I shot...

No I'm not expecting zombies but that's the problem. ..I don't know what I am expecting. I can tell you that I don't know if 7 rounds of #4 will be enough. Because I don't know what to expect. I do know that if a shotgun jams on the 1st round it's harder to clear than an AR.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

Apparently I didn't take or didn't save or can't find the pictures I was looking for.

Anyway, what I had done was shoot a hard drive. A friend and I took an old computer hard drive out and blasted it with an M1 Garand, Mini-14, 1911 and a Glock 22. As expected, the Garand did the most devastation. The Glock had the least penetration. The Mini-14 just punched small holes and mostly went straight through.

When it comes to penetration, the results are highly subjective. The medium used to test can have very different results. Obviously, a hard drive is not the right test subject (it was fun to shoot though). That's why I like the Box O Truth. They used dry wall and ply wood. Those are common household items that are the real materials found in a house and are real concerns when talking over penetration and home defense.

You posted while I was typing my last post.

Arik said:

I do know that if a shotgun jams on the 1st round it's harder to clear than an AR.

Click to expand...

Good point, but I'm not sure I agree. Why do you say a shotgun would be harder to clear? When you say "jam" what do you mean? Type I, II or III? Maybe something else?

Arik said:

No I'm not expecting zombies but that's the problem. ..I don't know what I am expecting.

Click to expand...

Precisely.Home defense can be anything from a suburban breakin with an alarm system that calls the cops and you can barricade behind a locked bedroom door to...who knows? TEOTWAWKI?

If the second, when it happens its a little late to run down to the sporting goods store and upgrade.

Rastoff said:

It's loud! If you've never fired a .223 indoors, without hearing protection, don't. You will have permanent hearing loss. The biggest effect of this is that it will incapacitate you. Trust me, shooting a .223 indoors, without hearing protection is a really bad idea.

My first pick would be the shotgun. Why? Because it's easy to handle and very powerful. Yes, it's loud too, but not as loud as a .223Rem.

Click to expand...

.380 157.7 dB
9mm 159.8 dB
.357 Magnum 164.3 dB
45 ACP 157.0 dB

12ga 18" barrel 161.50dB

.223 55GR. Commercial load 18" barrel 155.5dB

FreeHearingTest.com - Gunfire Noise Levels

Rastoff is going to be the Rabbit Hole Master of Ceremonies.

For the rural dwellers, over penetration of an exterior wall may not be an issue. For those that live in single family and multi family suburban sprawl, over penetration is an issue. Folks that live in densely populated urban areas face a different set of criteria. IMO, go with whichever firearm suits your particular physical abilities, the unique location and construction of your residence, and the one you get to practice with the most often.

I live in the suburban sprawl of Lake Zurich, Illinois. Notoriously anti-2nd Amendment Cook County is literally 5 miles down the road. Outdoor ranges are not within driving range. I don't have the opportunity for quality practice with long guns. There are a few indoor ranges, but I have to make do with static target practice. I only get to practice dynamic handgun drills a few times a year on a friend's cousin's farm a few hours away.

I do my best to practice dynamic handgun practice via full metal, gas blow-back, semi-auto airsoft pistols. The pistols mimic the size, exterior controls, and action of their center fire inspirations. I have a Glock 17, Beretta 92, and Sig 226 airsoft guns. I'll set up target traps in the garage to practice shooting from dynamic positions. I'll set up cardboard box target traps in various rooms in the house to simulate indoor defensive situations.

I don't get to practice proper recoil management, but everything else is as close as it can get. It maximizes the real live fire practice time I can get only a few times a year at the farm.

Those three handguns are what I get to practice with the most often. I keep a Glock 17 in a quick access safe. First mag is 19 rounds of frangible. Backup mag is hollow point. I keep a set of electronic muffs by the quick access safe and practice putting them on whenever I wake up at night to make it muscle memory. I wish I could equip my HD pistol with a silencer, but this is Illinois .

Other than a lack of a silencer, that Glock 17 is equipped with every unfair advantage I find useful. It comes with me on every trip to the range.

• Extended threaded match barrel.
• Compensator.
• TLR-4 Light/Laser
• Trijicon HD Night Sights
• Tuned trigger.

I'm thinking of getting the slide milled and fit a Trijicon RMR for an even bigger unfair advantage.

This is what works for my particular situation. This is the type of handgun I get the most practice on.

That's some interesting data Phil. I would not have thought that.

As an avid Trap shooter, I shoot shotguns all the time. I'm around shotguns of all varieties. I would never have thought a shotgun was louder than a .223, but then I'm not usually around 18" barrels.

I made a painful discovery about the .223 once. When I was setting up this test:


I was excited to get rolling with the shooting. I forgot to put my ear plugs in. The first shot was painful. While this was not inside, it was under a cover. I can tell you that it felt much worse than any shotgun I've ever shot. I don't know why it was so painful, I just know it was.

My AR-15 resides on my wife's side of the bed. All she needs to do is sit with the bed between her and the door with the green dot at the ready.

She can handle the AR better than a shotgun or handgun, so that's why it's a home defense gun in our case.

As far as the noise, I'd rather shoot the AR-15 indoors than my 681.

JaPes said:

Rastoff is going to be the Rabbit Hole Master of Ceremonies.

Click to expand...

I accept! This is what happens when you're stuck at home.

JaPes said:

Outdoor ranges are not within driving range. I don't have the opportunity for quality practice with long guns. There are a few indoor ranges, but I have to make do with static target practice. I only get to practice dynamic handgun drills a few times a year on a friend's cousin's farm a few hours away.

Click to expand...

This is a good point John, I'm glad you brought it up. If you can't practice with your intended self-defense tool, it's viability drops significantly.

JaPes said:

I'll set up cardboard box target traps in various rooms in the house to simulate indoor defensive situations.

Click to expand...

This is another good idea. I'm going to incorporate this into my Personal Protection Inside the Home class. Even if you can't practice with live rounds, just moving and aiming with a gun can be quite useful.

I guess my ready access to a live outdoor range makes me not think about practice solutions like this.

I would like to reiterate, practice is very important. I'd rather have a person practice with their rifle and deal with some of the limitations than not practice with something else and be completely unprepared should the need arise.

Rastoff said:

I guess my ready access to a live outdoor range makes me not think about practice solutions like this.

Click to expand...

That's where I'm lucky...I can shoot a 100 yd target safely without leaving my property.

My heaviest AR is still shorter and lighter than my shotgun.

LE entry teams went away from 9MM subguns to AR Carbines years ago after doing quite extensive penetration testing, finding the 9mm consistently out penetrated the 223.

Which to you want to shoot at a bad guy holding a knife to a loved one's throat?

If you cannot shoot an AR one handed you need to practice more.

Being a zoomie it is quite possible you are basing your assessments on FMJ 223. There are other types of ammo available now that are very effective in soft targets yet fragment rapidly in harder materials.

Training and the right tool for the job. Do not fall in to the, If your only tool is a hammer everything starts to look like a nail, trap.

jdh said:

If you cannot shoot an AR one handed you need to practice more.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Sometimes old farts with physical limitations believe in protecting ourselves and families too. I know I do and there is no way I could effectively handle an AR one handed for more than 5 seconds, 10 at most.

Some good reads on ammo choice and wound ballistics. There is one for 2) OVERPENETRATION INSIDE THE HOME

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

If you search through the Box Of Truth you can see some of their test done on sheetrock and penetration of various rounds.

The Box O' Truth - The Box O' Truth

For me if need arises which I hope it never does, I will use what I have at hand. Being it a AR with up to 100 round magazine, you never know how many BG's there will be, a 7 round 12 ga., a 7 round BG .380 or up to my carry .45 or any of the 9mm, .40 S&W or even any of my C&R handguns. I'm not picky I'll use what's at hand. I don't need to worry about neighbors. As for the noise I'll deal with that after words. One advantage of a long gun is if it malfunctions you have a nice club, and I would never advance through a doorway with the long barrel of a long gun first. As for 12 ga. the #1 buck is recommended, but you need to make up you own mind on shot choice.

bhayles said:

Not necessarily. Sometimes old farts with physical limitations believe in protecting ourselves and families too. I know I do and there is no way I could effectively handle an AR one handed for more than 5 seconds, 10 at most.

Click to expand...

For starters:
Tuck the buttstock under your arm, hold the pistol grip, and use the force/point shooting techniques.
To charge it hook the latch of the charging handle on your belt or in a pocket and push down on the pistol grip.

When the poo is flying and the adrenaline flowing you may surprise yourself. If you have to pull a loved one to safety, carry the grandchild in your off hand, or any of a multitude of other task requiring the use of a hand while covering the bad guy it would be nice to know in advance how. Also one should try to work the rifle with only the weak hand should the strong hand become injured.

If you think the AR is hard try it with a pump shotgun.

My$.02, take it for what it is worth.

jdh said:

If you think the AR is hard try it with a pump shotgun.

My$.02, take it for what it is worth.

Click to expand...

Winchester Mod 12 12 ga...with a seven shot mag...front heavy when loaded, which is my problem.

I still have all my pieces/parts, and they all work, but after 5 heart attacks and emphysema the strength/endurance just ain't what it used to be...