I've changed my opinion on piston driven rifles.

Engine49guy · Sep 17, 2014

jaymoore said:
.... Stoner wasn't against the piston design. Prime example? The "low tech" (i.e. easier to manufacture) AR18/180. That design never really left the starting gate due to lack of sales. Only real weak point in that 1960's design was the stock's hinge and lock, so....

Exacty this....
E. Stoners attempt to improve & simplify the shortcomings of the AR15 design with his gas piston AR18/AR180 design which followed shortly after .

Granted the weak link of the AR18 was its lightweight plastic folding stock then again it did not see the battle field developments the AR15/M16 did either .

Also while not publicly discussed its fairly apparent the bolt and guide rods are almost identical to the British L85 Light Infantry Weapon after viewing their parts breakdown, (they eliminated the flimsy buttstock by incorporating it into the buttstock).
Probably no coincidence that Sterling of England was making the Ar180 under license at that point.

L85 breakdown

AR18/AR180 breakdown (Compare the dual guide rod, receiver hole pattern and spring loaded action cover)
Note that the bolt is a top view in this pic...

Comparing the L85 bolt group in top pic to the AR18/AR180 bolt pictured below and oriented the same way reveals they are almost identical.

M&Pmeister · Sep 19, 2014

Actually, Stoner's original design for a "low-tech" version was the AR-12, which still used the DI he favored. After Armalite's parent company, Fairchild, sold the production rights of the DI system to Colt (along with the AR15), the design legally had to change to a short-recoil gas piston of the AR16, which later became AR-18. Stoner left Armalite in 1961 and AFAIK was not involved in the conversion to gas piston.

I don't know what Stoner really thought of gas piston. Just want to make sure credit is not given where credit is not necessarily due.

eyegots2no · Sep 19, 2014

Curious....does parts availability for the future factor in this?

JaPes · Sep 19, 2014

Yes. The service life of an AR-15 barrel is anywhere between 6,000 to 10,000 rounds. I figure that at that point, I'd have to replace everything else too.

rojodiablo · Sep 19, 2014

JaPes said:
Yes. The service life of an AR-15 barrel is anywhere between 6,000 to 10,000 rounds. I figure that at that point, I'd have to replace everything else too.

If the shooter does not run the barrel WFO and do many mag dumps, the AR15 barrel should last WITH accuracy for at least 10,000- 15,000 rounds.
Making the barrel glow will shorten its' life considerably......

Granted, I am talking about the kind of accuracy that a standard rifle gives up; not a Les Baer hot-rod.
I've got 2 with over 12K on them, and they both shoot well without keyholing. And, they have been eating that evil Russian ammo the whole time.

Biggfoot44 · Sep 20, 2014

As engeneering concepts DI and various piston designs all workn and generally work well.

But when I want a piston gun on purpose , I'll get one that was designed that way on purpose instead of a DI based platform reimagined into a piston.

A.O. · Sep 20, 2014

Biggfoot44 said:
As engeneering concepts DI and various piston designs all workn and generally work well.

But when I want a piston gun on purpose , I'll get one that was designed that way on purpose instead of a DI based platform reimagined into a piston.

YUP!!

Lee in Quartzsite · Sep 20, 2014

Shot from my M&P15 PS (Piston) at 100 yards, bench rest, EOTech XPS-2. Best rifle I have even owned. The 3 shots outside of the red circle were shot with my Magpul BUIS.

JaPes · Sep 20, 2014

A.O. said:
YUP!!

Indeed.

Engine49guy · Sep 20, 2014

The Piston works fairly well in the AK47 and SKS...
My favorite piston driven rifle is this SLR;

Oldsalt66 · Sep 20, 2014

eyegots2no said:
Curious....does parts availability for the future factor in this?

It certainly does for me which is why I stick with DI ARs.

CAJUNLAWYER · Sep 22, 2014

Just so I can understand this stuff-my Mini 14 would be considered piston driven, correct??

A.O. · Sep 22, 2014

CAJUNLAWYER said:
Just so I can understand this stuff-my Mini 14 would be considered piston driven, correct??

Ruger Mini-14 is gas operated, semi-automatic only weapon which uses Garand-typerotary bolt with two lugs. Action is operated by the long-stroke gas piston,which is located below the barrel and is concealed within forend of the stock.The gas piston has cup-shaped head, and is linked to the bolt via Garand-typeoperating rod which runs at the right side of the weapon. Manual safety also patterned after M1 Garand or M14 rifle, and is located at the front of the triggerguard.

As per this article I found.
Modern Firearms - Ruger AC-556 Mini-14GB

jdh · Sep 22, 2014

Just like the eternal Chevrolet v Ford debate, neither side in this argument is likely to convince the other they are wrong or give sufficient reason to switch. Neither side is as wrong as the other wishes to convince them they are.

A.O. · Sep 22, 2014

jdh said:
Just like the eternal Chevrolet v Ford debate, neither side in this argument is likely to convince the other they are wrong or give sufficient reason to switch. Neither side is as wrong as the other wishes to convince them they are.

Come on... nobody in their right mind would buy a piece of chevy!!

ChattanoogaPhil · Sep 23, 2014

Rastoff said:
Hmmm, I'm not convinced that it's an improvement.

Well yeah... but since when did that matter? The same can be said for most every accessory/mod ever made for an AR.

A.O. · Sep 23, 2014

ChattanoogaPhil said:
Well yeah... but since when did that matter? The same can be said for most every accessory/mod ever made for an AR.

they make accessories for AR's??

jdh · Sep 23, 2014

A.O. said:
Come on... nobody in their right mind would buy a piece of chevy!!

I won't own a ford. I have made too much money dragging them off the highway and fixing them to ever trust one.

A.O. · Sep 23, 2014

jdh said:
I won't own a ford. I have made too much money dragging them off the highway and fixing them to ever trust one.

I've never had a piece of chevy outlast the payments.. GM is not in my future!! YMMV

Rastoff · Sep 23, 2014

ChattanoogaPhil said:
Well yeah... but since when did that matter? The same can be said for most every accessory/mod ever made for an AR.

Yeah, you may have a point. Even so, the EOTech I've added is a vast improvement over the iron sights. The free float forearm made the gun measurably more accurate. The muzzle brake reduced the muzzle rise a quantifiable amount.

So, many things I've added were things that made not just noticeable improvements, but improvements I can prove. The piston system is different for sure and certainly not worse than the original system. But, is it as much of an improvement as some other things I've added? Maybe, but like I said, I'm not convinced enough to plunk down the $$$ to make the upgrade.

I've changed my opinion on piston driven rifles.

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