Disabled1
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Oh my! It seems I have struck another nerve in cyphertext. Are you going to be ok buddy?
What do I need to know to buy a Sport II
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ChattanoogaPhil
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The Sport is a fine rifle and will serve all those purposes.
There's nothing "budget" about the quality of parts for the purposes you listed. Instead, think configuration.
The two things I read about most are guys wanting to change the Sport's handguard to one that can accommodate attaching accessories, and a front folding sight to remove it from field of view for using a 1x red dot or low power optic. If those things sound like something you're interested in I would suggest considering a rifle in a configuration similar to the M&P 15T. I would not suggest buying a rifle in a configuration you don't want just to save a couple bucks on the purchase, then start buying replacement parts.
Happy AR hunting.
ps. And the rest of you guys... KNOCK OFF THE BICKERING.
There's nothing "budget" about the quality of parts for the purposes you listed. Instead, think configuration.
The two things I read about most are guys wanting to change the Sport's handguard to one that can accommodate attaching accessories, and a front folding sight to remove it from field of view for using a 1x red dot or low power optic. If those things sound like something you're interested in I would suggest considering a rifle in a configuration similar to the M&P 15T. I would not suggest buying a rifle in a configuration you don't want just to save a couple bucks on the purchase, then start buying replacement parts.
Happy AR hunting.
ps. And the rest of you guys... KNOCK OFF THE BICKERING.
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The Sport is a fine rifle and will serve all those purposes.
There's nothing "budget" about the quality of parts for the purposes you listed. Instead, think configuration.
The two things I read about most are guys wanting to change the Sport's handguard to one that can accommodate attaching accessories, and a front folding sight to remove it from field of view for using a 1x red dot or low power optic. If those things sound like something you're interested in I would suggest considering a rifle in a configuration similar to the M&P 15T. I would not suggest buying a rifle in a configuration you don't want just to save a couple bucks on the purchase, then start buying replacement parts.
Happy AR hunting.
ps. And the rest of you guys... KNOCK OFF THE BICKERING.
I believe that "budget" accurately describes the Sport II. IMHO every part in a S&W Sport II is "budget" because they were chosen to meet the budgeted price point for the production and the sale of the rifle.
People seems to focus on the negative connotations of the word "budget" and seem to take offense to its usage but I think it fits perfectly and here is why. To me in this context "budget" means inexpensive, economical, affordable, low-cost, low-price & bargain. I am in no way calling the Sport II cheaply made which is what I think people are misinterpreting my use of the term to mean. Maybe you can just substitute entry level and people would have less hurt feelings.
The Sport II is a "budget" rifle IMHO because of the following.
The Sport II was designed and spec'd to meet a price point at the bottom of the S&W M&P AR15 lineup. It was designed to be a entry level rifle to compete with other entry level rifles in a $500 to $700 price point. It is not supposed to be on par with guns like DD, BCM, LMT & Noveske etc... They are built to compete with Bushmaster, Aero, Anderson, PSA, Del-ton Wyndham & lower price DPMS etc... It is positioned to be the "budget" or entry level rifle in the S&W lineup. Nothing wrong with that. Most people do not "need" more than the Sport II offers. That does not mean people will not desire, justify and pay for more.
The Sport II offers the most basic, economical and cost effective feature set in order to meet a production and retail "budget". It is using a configuration that had tons of economy of scale already built into it. It is a very basic configuration by today's standard. Nothing wrong with that but it is you know "budget".
They use A2 handguards, M4 grip, GI type single stage trigger, A2 front post, non MPI and HTP tested semi-auto bolt carrier groups, a 1/9 twist barrel which is nitrided not chrome lined, non-1075 buffer tube etc... They did this in order to meet the consumer demand at a particular price point or "budget". Again it is proven solid configuration that will serve many people well but it is pretty basic.
They did not set out to make the best rifle they could design, with no consideration of cost, and then priced it based on the build. They clearly picked a price point and built the best rifle based on the "budget" they chose. There is nothing wrong with that approach. Almost every business uses this approach. Only truly bespoke products don't use a "budget" model to design products.
Only a handful of AR15 makers take the truly bespoke approach because those who really want that have a "budget" which is equal to the bespoke requirements. Different approaches to different markets.
The Sport II has been changed in order to give people some of the things that were missing on the Sport I like the dust cover and the FA. They even added a brand name Magpul rear BUIS but in order to stay within the "budget" they changed other things like the barrel which now has mil spec rifling instead of 5r. IIRC they started this change before the introduction of the Sport II. Again S&W was making decisions with a "budget" in mind.
As I stated before none of these make the Sport II a bad rifle. It simply is what it is. A rifle spec'd and built to compete at the lower end of the AR15 price spectrum and it does that job well. It does it at a "budget" that allows more people access to a quality gun, with some configuration limitations, that will satisfy the requirements of a wide range of buyers. It has great appeal and S&W has done a good job with the rifle.
I guess my point is that calling something "budget" like calling informal target shooting "plinking" is not being derogatory. There is no need to take offense. If you like the setup and it is within your "budget" get one. I agree with ChattanoogaPhil look closely at the configuration because if are going to swap a lot of stuff our you might consider a different base gun like an Areo mid-length 16". $559
OEM MID-LENGTH 16" RIFLE | Brownells
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cyphertext
US Veteran
I have no issue with calling the Sport a budget rifle and discussing the merits and features. It is the remarks about quality, and what the rifle is or is not capable of, based on the idea that it is lower cost, or "entry level".
As far as features, the Sport does have a MPI and HPT tested bolt, at least the original did. The BCG was produced by Microbest. They have provided BCGs for military contracts as well as other makers. S&W did use a semi auto carrier, but it is still quality. Other things, such as the A2 grip, GI trigger, A2 front post... well, it is M4ish clone. These things are also used on the Colt LE6920, what was the "gold standard" at the time. It is made to be a basic, no frills type of AR. It wasn't made to be compared to a tricked out boutique rifle.
It is hard to interpret tone on a forum such as this. If your intention was not to bash the Sport, but to merely point out that you are getting a basic carbine for the low price point, I apologize. Just many years of seeing posts that say the Sport isn't good enough, yet for many, it really is.
ETA... those Aero offerings look very good for the price. That is the direction I would go if I were looking at this type of AR today.
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I'd like to cite an analogy about "budget" or "entry level" items. Back in the early 70's a little company in Japan started making entry level cars. They were not luxurious. They were not fast. They were not big. And they were built to sell at a low price point. That company was Toyota. The Corolla especially became the symbol of the entry level vehicle for a lot of baby boomers just entering the work force with only small children at most. That car was oozing with quality though. Eventually it nearly bankrupted Detroit because they couldn't compete with the Japanese quality. Or they wouldn't. Detroit could sell their products at a higher price without doing the hard work of researching the durability of the parts they used. People bought the Detroit cars because of tradition among other things. Then the energy crisis hit and suddenly those econobox Toyotas were selling like hotcakes. They got 35 mpg (mine actually got 36 mpg) and you could buy one for half the price of an American entry level vehicle.
The Sport is a lot like that early Toyota lineup. It's a quality rifle built to a price point. The idea it is inferior because it is cheap is the same argument many made way back when about those Japanese cars. Then Honda came along and added luxury items to those econoboxes and the rest is history. They had few luxury items at first. They came without air conditioners unless you wanted to pay extra and the A/C wasn't cheap. Those cars still sell very, very well. And back in the early days I bought a lot of Toyotas with 100,000 miles on them because people thought they were worn out. They weren't. I made ridge runners out of them and they stood up very well to that torture.
The Sport can do what most people need it to do. It will get you from point A to point B so to speak just like those Japanese cars. The quality is there even if the features many want are not there. But if you can live with the configuration you're in business because they are built very well IMO. And now we're looking at an assault weapons ban possibly. It will be like the energy crisis for Toyota. The Sport will jump up in price and be hard to find. Yes you have that A2 post in the way of your optics unless you get the right design. A 1/3 lower co-witness will get you around that A2 post problem if you want a red dot. If you want a scope you should have bought something else.
The configuration was perfect for me. No frills to break or cost extra. You can do that later if you wish but the best thing about the Sport is buying one and driving the heck out of it and not worrying about dropping a 350 small block in it. Those Detroit cars nearly went away because of the entry level Japanese cars. We might see something similar with the Sport IMO. It's a great rifle for a great price. If you like the configuration you really are lucky with the Sport.
The Sport is a lot like that early Toyota lineup. It's a quality rifle built to a price point. The idea it is inferior because it is cheap is the same argument many made way back when about those Japanese cars. Then Honda came along and added luxury items to those econoboxes and the rest is history. They had few luxury items at first. They came without air conditioners unless you wanted to pay extra and the A/C wasn't cheap. Those cars still sell very, very well. And back in the early days I bought a lot of Toyotas with 100,000 miles on them because people thought they were worn out. They weren't. I made ridge runners out of them and they stood up very well to that torture.
The Sport can do what most people need it to do. It will get you from point A to point B so to speak just like those Japanese cars. The quality is there even if the features many want are not there. But if you can live with the configuration you're in business because they are built very well IMO. And now we're looking at an assault weapons ban possibly. It will be like the energy crisis for Toyota. The Sport will jump up in price and be hard to find. Yes you have that A2 post in the way of your optics unless you get the right design. A 1/3 lower co-witness will get you around that A2 post problem if you want a red dot. If you want a scope you should have bought something else.
The configuration was perfect for me. No frills to break or cost extra. You can do that later if you wish but the best thing about the Sport is buying one and driving the heck out of it and not worrying about dropping a 350 small block in it. Those Detroit cars nearly went away because of the entry level Japanese cars. We might see something similar with the Sport IMO. It's a great rifle for a great price. If you like the configuration you really are lucky with the Sport.
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ChattanoogaPhil
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Is that like saying the BCM Mod 0 is a budget rifle built to a budget price point. In contrast, BCMGunfighter Select is built for those with requirements that exceed a budget rifle.
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Yes in a way. The Mod 0 is the "budget" or starter rifle of the BCM line. To me the difference is in the what "budget" BCM was looking to meet in terms of production cost and retail cost. The BCM is not targeting the entry level AR15 buyer. They have a different target market. The Mod 0 is appealing to people who want a M4 configuration with a higher than mil-spec quality with a few upgrades. They are going after the Colt 6920 market which is slightly different than the Sport II. IMHO
To be fair I would not buy a BCM Mod 0 if I were choosing from the BCM line but then again I would not buy a BCM Haley Strategic Jack Carbine Package either. I own a BCM but it was not purchased as a complete rifle. It was a purchased as a complete upper and a complete lower so I would tailor it a configuration I wanted plus it saved me $$$.
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ChattanoogaPhil
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Right.
I think choosing the general configuration is far more important than stuff like whether the receiver extension tube is 7075 / 6061 or if a manufacturer batch tests bolts or not. While it may be good fodder for discussion, I think these values for someone who intends to do some target shooting and pop a coyote are somewhere between meaningless and meaningless.
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ChattanoogaPhil
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I think that's the most overblown advertising hype since the world was supposed to end Y2K.
Buy hey... if a guy buys a Sport for $499 and tosses in a BCM bolt for $80... uh oh...
cyphertext
US Veteran
I think that's the most overblown advertising hype since the world was supposed to end Y2K.
Buy hey... if a guy buys a Sport for $499 and tosses in a BCM bolt for $80... uh oh...
It was on the chart!! We must have it... the chart said so!
You and I agree on the configuration part but disagree about the 6061 tube and the bolt. I have seen enough bent 6061 tubes to believe that the small cost difference is worth it for my rifles. The bolt is one of the most important parts of the AR15 platform and spending a little bit more for a tested bolt again makes sense for me. Clearly YMMV but to say that these things are meaningless is a misstatement. IMHO It is meaningless to you which is a subjective opinion not a universal fact.
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I think that's the most overblown advertising hype since the world was supposed to end Y2K.
Buy hey... if a guy buys a Sport for $499 and tosses in a BCM bolt for $80... uh oh...
You still have a Sport II with a better bolt carrier but that rifle is still worth about $400 in the used market unless we have another complete panic. It will still be viewed as a Sport II mainly because the rest of the build is what it is. The better bolt is not enough to change that and yes I believe that the BCM bolt is a better bolt.
The only substantial value add you can put on a S&W Sport II that will make it more desirable would be a better trigger. Even am ALG QMS or ACT would an improvement over stock. Go with something like a LaRue MBT or a Geissele G2S and you have a vastly improved rifle IMHO. Again these are my opinions and you are feel to free differently.
blues7
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I've been following this argument with great interest though much seems to turn on semantics.
I have refrained from joining the fray thus far but semantics or not, I just have to draw the line at a testes bolt.
I feel that my position is not merely a subjective opinion but in total accord with the 8th Amendment's prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.
ChattanoogaPhil
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I'd be glad to hear the facts.
Who manufactures the bolts BMC sells?
What is the method of MPI testing you spoke of, batch testing or otherwise?
What is the reject rate?
What are the specific differences between the bolts that BMC sells and S&W sells?
What are the failure rate differences between the bolts BMC sells and S&W sells?
------------
As far as value... I was talking about the value of reliability, not the value of resale. Buying the BMC bolt was just erasing one of the stated reasons why the the Sport is considered a budget rifle for reliability concerns for a mere $80. BMC $40 receiver extension tube, ok. So now we have a $499 Sport with an $80 bolt and $40 receiver extension tube. And now we have a spare bolt for when that BMC bolt fails. Does that about cover the main budget rifle reliability deficiencies?
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I've been following this argument with great interest though much seems to turn on semantics.
I have refrained from joining the fray thus far but semantics or not, I just have to draw the line at a testes bolt.
I feel that my position is not merely a subjective opinion but in total accord with the 8th Amendment's prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment.
LOL stupid fat fingers.
Would like to think those that tried to answer my questions on what I needed when buying the S&W AR 15 Sport II .. And some of the pros and cons for a optic to mount on it ..
Those who argued between themselves really didn't help someone like me who had decide on buying an entry level AR and was unfamiliar to them ..
Those who argued between themselves really didn't help someone like me who had decide on buying an entry level AR and was unfamiliar to them ..
Disabled1
US Veteran
I already own a Sport 1 so the Sport 2 was not even considered a strong candidate in me choosing another AR.
But, I am glad I bought the Ruger AR-556. If GRABAGUN had the CORE 15 M4 SCOUT on sale when I bought the Ruger's, I would have bought it. GAG has it for $625 now, but, it was $749 at the time I bought the Ruger's.
I will say this though, if you put the Sport 2 next to the AR-556, I bet you could not tell them apart. They look identical.
Anyway, enjoy your Sport 1 and Sport 2. LOCK AND LOAD!
HOOAH & SEMPER FI!
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