Is 4 MOA dot size too big?

I'm looking to pick up a red dot sight for my sport 2 and am new to both AR's and red dots. I use a mossberg 500 for HD, and a 10/22 for target shooting/small game and plinking. I'm thinking the use for my AR is going to be plinking and SHTF.

I'm looking for a red dot for $200 or less. So far the 2 names that keep coming up in my research are Vortex and Primary Arms. I handled an AR inside my LGS that was equipped with a Vortex Strike Fire 2 and loved it. I like the warranty the brightness and the shape(tube length and mount) more than the primary arms micro dot.. however the vortex has a 4 MOA dot compared to a 2 MOA dot that the primary arms has. I have no first hand experience with primary arms. I do like the looks of the older Primary Arms M3 clone(looks similar to the strike fire 2), however I think its discontinued because I cant find any sites that sell them. Also people seem to talk well about the Bushnell TRS-25 which has a 3 MOA dot, but again I prefer the looks of the Vortex.

So, has anyone tried any of these sights? Are there any other red dots that you would recommend? Is 4 MOA dot size too large?

Thanks , and please post pics if you have any of these optics or one you would recommend.

No experience with your named Red Dot sights, but lots of experience with Dot Sights. IMHO, for your AR 15 type rifle and even your 10/22, the 4 moa dot would be close to optimum. The smaller dots are good for benchrest shooting of small groups. They are harder and therefore time consuming to find when in a hurry to get a shot off. On a SD handgun, I would go for a 6 or even 8 moa dot. It would never shoot tight little groups off a bench, but would be just right when thing go 'thump in the night' within your home. .......

Please do a Range Report for us when you get a little experience with yours.............

I have the vortex strikefire 2 and it has the 4 minute dot.. love the no questions asked warranty and can't beat the price comes with a co witness mount ..

No dot is any good if it doesn't hold zero. MOA is minute of angle, that is the diameter the dot covers at a given yardage. One MOA covers approx. one inch at 100 yards, two inches at two hundred yards. So, a red dot that has an MOA of 4, the dot will appear to cover approx. 4 inches at 100 yards, 8 inches at two hundred yards. A lot depends on if you will be shooting from the bench, off hand, hunting and the distances. Moving the sight from one weapon to another will generally require the dot to be re-zeroed.

I have owned both the Vortex Strikefire and the PA AD-MDS. I returned the Strikefire and still have the AD-MDS.

The Strikefire had too much parallax error for me. Most people won't notice it and in fact don't check for it. So, it would probably work fine for you.

A 2MOA dot at the correct brightness is not any more difficult to pick up than a 4MOA dot on a rifle. This is because of the stock and cheek weld. On a pistol it's a completely different matter.

Therefore, I prefer the 2MOA dot. When I do take precision shots, the 2MOA is better.

Both companies have the same level of quality customer service. I'm a huge fan of Vortex and have two of their higher end scopes. However, when it comes to the low end red dots, the PA AD-MDS is the best I've personally used.

Never heard of anyone picking an optic based on looks... clarity of glass, size and clarity of dot, battery life, price... but never looks.

cyphertext said:

Never heard of anyone picking an optic based on looks... clarity of glass, size and clarity of dot, battery life, price... but never looks.

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Why not? In the end, everything else being equal, you have to live with it.

I have a friend who just bought a 1911. It came with really nice wood grip panels. Before he got it home, he swapped the grip panels for black ones. Why? Because he likes black. No other reason.

So, yeah, if the rest of the specs are the same, get the one that looks good to you. You're more likely to use it then.

cyphertext said:

Never heard of anyone picking an optic based on looks... clarity of glass, size and clarity of dot, battery life, price... but never looks.

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I havent picked one yet... thats why im asking questions.

If you re-read my post you'll see its says Ive handled the vortex in person and have no experience with the Primary Arms. You'll also read this will be for plinking.

They are both priced the same, supposedly comparable in clarity of glass and dot... the main difference that I can tell, just from reading forum reviews and watching youtube vids is limited lidetime warranty for vortex vs 1 year for PA, LOOKS and 2 MOA dot vs 4 MOA dot. Which is why this thread is titled "Is 4 MOA dot too big".


Do you have an opinion on the actual subject? Thanks.

Small, light reliable.

The only thing I would prefer is the 4moa instead of the 2moa I have. My eyes don't resolve the 2moa dot well. 4moa is crisp to my eyes and faster for me. Actually, the Aimpoint 4moa is supposed to be closer to 3.5moa. I don't do any precision paper punching.

The only thing I would prefer is the 4moa instead of the 2moa I have. My eyes don't resolve the 2moa dot well. 4moa is crisp to my eyes and faster for me. [URL=http://s1270.photobucket.com/user/Pugsters/media/IMG_4389_zpsuonef3vb.jpg.html said:

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Thank you, this is exactly the type of info I was looking for.

To me, dot size really depends on how you're going to use it. For close work, 4MOA is not bad, but as the range increases things can get problematic. As long as hitting within 2-4 inches of where you want to hit is ok with you, no problem.

I went down this same road a year or so ago, doing much the same research on the net that you are, including, checking around with this board. And like you, found myself looking hard at both Vortex and PA offerings. Both Vortex and PA have great reputations for product support.

In the end I went with the Strikefire II. It is a good budget optic that fits well the criteria you set out. The 4 MOA dot is not too big at all and should work well on your AR.

You'll find this same discussion in several threads on this forum. Strikefire II has a good reputation and is generally well regarded.

No regrets here with my decision.

Midway has the Aimpoint Pro for $437 and offering a $50 gift certificate with purchase. $50 Code 50GCAIM42017. Free shipping too. $387 is a pretty good price.

Aimpoint PRO Red Dot Sight 30mm Tube 1x 2 MOA Dot Picatinny-Style

Rastoff said:

Why not? In the end, everything else being equal, you have to live with it.

I have a friend who just bought a 1911. It came with really nice wood grip panels. Before he got it home, he swapped the grip panels for black ones. Why? Because he likes black. No other reason.

So, yeah, if the rest of the specs are the same, get the one that looks good to you. You're more likely to use it then.

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If you are looking at identical cars, except one is red and one is black, then sure... get the one that you like the look of more...

But he is talking about optics and the specs aren't the same... different size dots and different battery life come into play in the models that the OP mentioned... but hey, whatever. Bet the next question will be how to remove the front sight.

cyphertext said:

If you are looking at identical cars, except one is red and one is black, then sure... get the one that you like the look of more...

But he is talking about optics and the specs aren't the same... different size dots and different battery life come into play in the models that the OP mentioned... but hey, whatever. Bet the next question will be how to remove the front sight.

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I'm here researching, asking about Dot size so I can make an informed decision. Battery life isnt as important to me, as this is just a range toy for me and I can buy batteries. I'm not going into battle and this isnt a duty weapon. You've commented twice now in this thread, but havent actually commented on the subject. Do you actually have a preference in dot size? If so, please contribute to the thread... If not, please move along.

Thanks

I have both. My humble opinion would be to get the 2 moa dot unless you have some other issue like Phil mentions above. The bigger dots are easier ( a little ) to acquire target hold with.

You mention that this will be a range gun however, and I find that I always end up trying to get that little dot to hit something smaller than I did last time I went out. I try to make smaller groups, or I try to shoot from farther away, etc. The smaller dot does make a difference pretty quickly beyond 100yds.

That being said, I (and my friends) the last time we had a rangefest wound up putting the 4moa on and seeing who could make the smallest 10 shot groups at 100. This was absolutely the most fun we've had so far with the AR at that distance. And surprisingly enough, it will train you in skills that you don't usually notice at 100 yards. Breathing and heartbeat come into play much more so than you'd think!

From my personal experience, it sounds like you're right in the PA MDS wheelhouse. Primary Arms PA-MDS, and the MD-RGBII are great. I've got both, and aside from a little (very) fit and finish, battery life, and price, they seem identical. The MDS I have is 2moa. I've also got an RGB so I can say without guesswork that they're both fine. The RGB has the added benefit of being about $80 cheaper. In my case, I bought myself the MDS, my wife loves me so she bought me the RGB and it still sits in its box. One day I may need to send the MDS in for work... wink.

You will also want to get a good mount, as this makes it much more convenient to remove/swap optics. I use a pair of ADM QD absolute co-witness mounts - one on each. RTZ is flawless so far... If you don't think you'll remove it then I would still advise buying a good mount. They pay off.

My 4moa dot is no longer available from PA, but it still works like it always has, exactly as it should. I am no friend to my rifles/dots, they are tools, and I use them as such. I train, play, and practice with all my dots, and find that for lane range use, the 2moa is best, CQB style is easier with the 4moa.

Honestly, everything seems to be moving toward the 2moa dot, so unless you think you want the 4moa, I'd say go with a 2.

linky: Shopping

SWMP15Pks- Thanks for the detailed reply. I was looking at the Fortis mount (F1 , I believe) if I go the PA route. I do like the Fortis mount(seems more secure) over the vortex 1 bolt mount... but the PA dot plus the cost of the Fortis mount gets me very close to the price of the Aimpoint linked above.

I recently started wearing glasses but my eyes arent too bad. It sounds like either 2 or 4 MOA dots will serve me well for my purposes(20-80yds). Thanks for the info.

bevans555 said:

I'm here researching, asking about Dot size so I can make an informed decision. Battery life isnt as important to me, as this is just a range toy for me and I can buy batteries. I'm not going into battle and this isnt a duty weapon. You've commented twice now in this thread, but havent actually commented on the subject. Do you actually have a preference in dot size? If so, please contribute to the thread... If not, please move along.

Thanks

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My second comment was not to you... Neat thing about forums... sometimes the conversation and comments are not just to you.

As for your question on dot size... it depends on what you will be using the rifle for, as well as personal preference. As has already been stated, a 4 MOA dot is easier to pick up quickly than a 2 MOA dot... but the 4 MOA dot covers more of the target. If you are shooting man size targets at 100 yards, not a big deal, but if shooting aluminum cans at 100 yards, you may need to change how you have the POA and POI situated within your dot... I have mine where POI is center of my dot. Others set POI to be the top edge of the dot so that they can try to be more precise... however I don't look at a red dot as a precision tool, more of a quick target acquisition tool.

There are also red dot sights that offer different reticles than just a dot. Like a small dot centered in a larger circle, cross hairs, or even a chevron with bullet drop compensation. One of these may be better for your use. So, it isn't that simple to answer your question...

I also saw where you said the rifle could be used for "SHTF". If so, battery life is probably more important than dot size... doesn't matter if it is a 2 MOA dot or 4 MOA dot if the battery is dead when "SHTF".

You might also want to consider a nice 1-4x or 1-6x scope. I see your limit is $200 BUT the Vortex 1-6x Strike Eagle is under $400. It comes with an illuminated reticle too. I am using one on my M&P 15OR for 3-gun and really like it.

As far as dot size goes, my first red dot was a TRS-25. Ive moved it from gun to gun over the last several years. It's held up very well. On my competition gun, an M&P C.O.R.E., I currently have a Burris FFIII with an 8 MOA dot. I find the smaller dot better for the rifle and a larger dot for my pistol. Hope this helps.

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I like the 2MOA, but I also keep my guns in the safe and shoot them in my yard and have zero thought towards being prepared to fend for my life with them. Yeah, I've got them if that ever happened, and of course not all are in the safe as well, but my point to that is that I'm not making purchases with that scenario in mind. The next guy could be the exact opposite.

I've had red dots on rifles or handguns for a while, normally on the lower end of the price point, and I'm normally target shooting or something anyway. The smaller dot is going to give me a smaller aiming point. I can cover a golf ball thats laying at 50yds with the 2MOA and have a good chance of hitting it. With a 4MOA, its going to be more covered up, maybe even completely eclipsed by the dot. If I'm shooting an 8" plate at 100yds, either one will work, though I'd be more precise with the smaller dot. But thats what I use mine for and the next guy is going to be different, so really it just boils down to what you're wanting it for and what you'll be satisfied with.