Hello all,

I appreciate all your help so far. I am still learning my AR-15.

My goal is to have good aim from 50 to 300 yards so I can prepare for my first deer hunt in the next 1 year. So my goal is to practice shooting once per month to get practice aim.

I have not made any modifications to AR. I was trying to get better with front sights as much as possible before moving to Scope. I have not had any training with aiming yet.

So yesterday I went to outdoor range and shot with the front sights. I think I need more practice.

When should I upgrade from front sights to scope?

Screenshot by Lightshot

Screenshot by Lightshot

Screenshot by Lightshot

Wow, the group is all over the target. I first off think the ar15 is too light of a cartridge for white tail in Texas. Minimum would be 300 BO. If you are going to hunt deer in Texas, you should probably consider .308 or AR10 for a confident kill round.

That being said, I know some people think they are great marksmen and can do a kill shot with a 22 caliber bullet, but I don't think that is the way to go.

Before doing anything, you need some quality instruction. Your going to end up with bad habits otherwise. Once you have the fundamentals down you can pick whatever sighting system you desire.

"Perfect practice makes perfect"

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

__________________
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome

You need some professional instruction. You don't know, what you don't know. Bad habits are very difficult to unlearn.

I think you need to practice at 25 and then 50 yards and work at getting much better groups. After you know your iron sights are right on you can consider moving to a scope. The first major need is getting control of the trigger so that you are not moving as you pull the trigger.

When you decide to go with a scope I would go with a Nikon P223 or a Vortex as they both are great scopes.

Thank you,

A few questions here:

1. So all you guys know how to hit accurate with just the front sights at 25 to 100 yards? It seems impossible for me.

2. Should I be standing or siitting down whem practing with front sights from 25 to 50 yards?

3. Should I order a Bipod?
I saw all of guys at range with this on their AR. They are fun to shoot.

Thank you

Are you saying you are ONLY using the front sight and not in conjunction with the rear sight?

No, he's just having a terminology issue. He's using the sights and has actually been to a training class.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Thank you so much.

Where do I obtain professional instruction from in Houston? I do not mind paying for a class

Join the Army or Marines, they'll pay you to learn.

I don't know what current Army standards are, but
everyone (infantry, cooks, clerks etc) had to qualify
annually with the current version "AR", with most
targets beyond 100 meters.

The longest shot was the 300 meter "E-type" silhouette,
sized to approximate a man's head & torso, from waist
up.

All with the iron sights...and lots of guys shot 40/40.

Hello Steve912,

I wish I had join Army. It's a bit to late for me now, I am 37 years old, married, and full time job now.

WOW, so Army standard is to shoot acurately with iron sights from 100 to 300 yards? That is very impressive. It seems impossible for me.

What does 40/40 mean?

When your eyes start getting blurry would be a good indicator

You'd learn a lot at an Appleseed event.

Project Appleseed | Project Appleseed

Here is the TX schedule of upcoming events.

schedule | Project Appleseed

__________________
Straight shootin'
SWCA#2439

Please clarify what you are using for sights currently. You say front sights. Do you not have a rear sight? Are you using a carry handle or flip up rear sight?

With a little practice / training and a decent rifle, you should be able to put your shots in a paper plate size target from 25 to 100 yards relatively easily.

Thank you,

This is the exact rifle I have.
M&P(R)15 Sport™ II | Smith & Wesson I have not modified it or add any extras.

I was sitting on this bench shooting 50 yards looking at the front sights at first and I never hit the sheet of paper. For about 20 rounds, I did not even hit the paper.

Then I kept still, breath in and out, calm myself and use the rear sights and started hitting the paper. Keep in mind this is my 3rd time shooting.

I seriously risk I can just hire a good shooter (hunter) to teach me all the basics. So that's what I am looking for now.

Can the AR15 hit the middle at 50 yards with just front and rear sights?

If the sights are zeroed, sure...you'll be able to hit a soda can
at 50 yards, easily--if the sights are zeroed, AND you achieve
proper sight alignment, sight picture, and apply decent trigger
squeeze.

These are fundamentals to shooting any firearm, and not
difficult to learn--but ya gotta learn, and apply them.

Like learning to drive a car, it will seem like a lot of things
to keep track of, in the beginning. With time and repetition
(which can be by dry firing), it will come automatically.

Thanks Steve912,

What does means by "sights are zeroed" ?

Here's a google list of possible locations for training.houston texas marksmanship traing - Google Search

Here are others which include the National Rifle Association. houston texas marksmanship training nra - Google Search

Where in Houston are you? A great place to contact would be The Texas Gun Club. They offer instruction and they have the only indoor 50 yard range in the city. They are in Stafford which is in the Southwest Houston area. You can either buy a membership (which has some advantages) or pay a range fee.

HOME ⋆ Texas Gun Club

Before I make any comments about training, there's some stuff we don't know. So, please answer these questions for us:

How long have you had this rifle?
How much shooting experience do you have?
The target you pictured was shot at what distance?
Did you zero your sights? If so, what distance?
When you were shooting, were you resting on the bags? Standing? Kneeling?

When you say, "front sights" are you just talking about the iron sights the gun came with? The commonly accepted term for the sights you have on the gun you pictured is "iron sights."

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Thank you and I will respond below.

I took the Rifle Essential Skill Development – Athena Gun Club here back in September 2017, but the problem is I forget everything I was taught because I stop practicing because of work. We only shot at 17 yards. Now I will practice 2 times a month.

I really need some good training at 25-100 yards.

Should I be accurate with the iron sights at 25-100 yards?

Goodo, what's your primary language?

Thank you and I will respond below.

I took the Rifle Essential Skill Development – Athena Gun Club here back in September 2017, but the problem is I forget everything I was taught because I stop practicing because of work. We only shot at 17 yards. Now I will practice 2 times a month.

I really need some good training at 25-100 yards.

Should I be accurate with the iron sights at 25-100 yards?

__________________
Straight shootin'
SWCA#2439

LOL......no one needs 30 rounds of .22 caliber bullets........

........18 .32cal pellets; and gravity, will do the trick!!!!




Oh wait........

............. he's got a Secret Service Protection Detail!!!!!!

Never mind!!!!

Thanks. That video made me laugh.

Nothing was mentioned of the ammunition,AR's(as with bolt actions) accuracy is affected by ammunition. Trigger control(anticipation) and ammo. ARs' are capable,try letting someone shoot it to compare results.

OK, now we're getting somewhere. This is a basic function of the gun. If you don't know this, you have no hope of hitting your target with any consistency or accuracy.

The sights are adjustable. The rear sight is adjustable for windage (left and right) and the front sight is adjustable for elevation (up and down).

Here's how to do it:

• Place a target at 50 yards. I normally recommend 100, but 50 will be easier for you.
• Using a rest, like you showed, fire three shots. Take your time with each shot and make sure the sights are perfectly aligned and in the center of the target for each shot.
• Walk down and look at the target. Find the center of the group. Note where it is in relation to the center of the target. Look at this pic:
  
  In this pic the center of the three shot group is 1" low and 2" to the left. So, the rear sight needs to be moved a little to the right and the front sight needs to be moved a little down.
• Tape over the holes. This way you can tell them from subsequent groups.
• Go back and fire another three shot group after the sight adjustment.

Repeat these steps until the group is as close to the center as possible. This is how you zero the gun/sights. There's a lot more to shooting, but this will get you started.

For the record, you're not ready to go hunting yet.

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Goodoboy.......

Guys; anyone here run a mentoring program in the Houston Area??

Goodo..... take this with the good intentions it's given...... you need hands on help..... at best you are learning/teaching yourself bad habits..

If you can afford it ..... my second piece of advice is to get a .22lr bolt action rifle and learn the shooting basics...... at $0.07 a shot... this summer. By Fall you should be ready to move up to your AR.

(IMHO a semi-automatic rifle in .223 is not the best hunting/Deer rifle)

For the record I was an NRA Rifle and pistol instructor and shot on my High School and College Rifle teams.

Thank you for response and clear explanation in and helping me.

Yess, I am not ready for hunting at all. I want to get better at shooting.

Here is my plan to prepare for hunting hopefully by November.

Please everyone let me know if agree with my plan. I'm just starting out so I need help.


1. First get my AR iron sights and rear site zero sighted for 50 yards. There is instructors at American Shooting range in Houston that charge $15 for this.

After this should I get a scope on the rfile?

2. Hire instructor at American Shooting range to teach me how to accurately shoot up 100 yards or higher. They charge like $100 per hour.

Will the instructor required me to shoot with scope or iron sights? If so, I better get a scope on this AR.

I will purchase a Adjustable Folding Bipod so I get comfortable with my position for everyshot. I want have sand back in the deer blind

3. Practice every Saturday 50 to 200 yards til to make sure I am accurate. I will practice just how I plan to sit in the deer/hog blind.

4. Once I get better and comfortable and consistently accurate with ar15 I will purcahse a .308 or 270 or 30-.06 scope rifle and practice til Novemebr. I will not hunt with ar15 for the reasons everyone stated above. I rather use higher caliber to ensure high impact shot.

Thank you all so much.

Please let me know if my plan make sense and offer your comments please.

Do not pay someone else to zero your rifle. Learn to do it yourself.

You do need an instructor. If I were teaching you to shoot, you would start with a .22lr at 25 yards. If you plan to hunt using a scope, get a scope and learn to shoot with it. Many will disagree with me here, but if you aren't going to use iron sights, then don't worry about mastering them. Some of my hunting rifles don't even have iron sights on them.

Waste of money in my opinion... If shooting from a blind, just steady the gun on the frame of the blind. If shooting from the ground, learn shooting from field positions (sitting, kneeling, and prone), with use of a sling and shooting sticks to help stabilize.

Next to impossible to practice from the bench the same as shooting from a blind. Focus on basics, (sight alignment, sight picture, breath control, trigger control) while bench shooting.

I wouldn't worry about equipment at this point. Learn to shoot first. You are a long way from being ready to go hunt.

Thank you cyphertext for your comments.

Questions

1. I agree with getting a scope now, I will definetly be hunting with a scope. Do I need to zero the front iron sights before buying a scope and installing it on AR? Or when I get scope I will need to zero it as well?

2. Should I juse get a scope on AR and go shoot it and see how well I do? If I'm not accurate, hire an instructor.

Appreciate the comments

I typed "Fundamentals Of Rifle Marksmanship" into my browser.
Lots of info under that heading on the Net, including videos.
Not as good as personal instruction but should help with the basics.

I would practice from standing, sitting and prone. I've shot deer from blinds with the rifle rested on the sill of the firing port, from standing, (several) and one from prone. It was my second deer of the day. The first was taken from standing.

The AR in .223 would not be my first choice for deer, but I think it would work with deer bullets (softpoints), careful shooting at short ranges, with good shot placement.

Many of the deer I've killed were shot at 50 yards. Some were under that. The longest kill was made at just over 200 yards. With the .223
I'd try to get shots no longer than 100 yards.

I plan to shoot deer standing broadside and place the bullet just behind the front leg. I aim for the lung area and sometimes hit the top of
the heart, or the arteries above it. With that shot I have not had to
trail many deer. Most have fallen on the spot.

It's good that you are practicing ahead of the season.

You've received many well-meaning suggestions, but they are all over the place and likely not only confusing but overwhelming.

You might consider getting two or three books on ARs and reading them thoroughly. At least one book should be a very basic one.

Hunting is something else altogether. Best to study cartridge choices before you decide on a .223 / 5.56 AR for deer hunting. This is something worthy of research rather than argument. Good luck in your endeavor.

Well, I would say when you feel the need.

__________________
USMC 83'-87', NRA Member.

Thank you all for the help and support. Please help me with my plan above. No I'm not a troll. I just don't know as much you all, cause I haven't been shooting all my life. Some of my questions are simple, but I don't know. Lol

Check my plan above and let me know what you think.

There is a shooting range called Carters Country. I'm sure they will have some instructional opportunity there. It's been years since I've been there, but remember it fondly. They had 100 and 200 yard ranges...places for skeet and trap, and pistol ranges too. Check it out. I think you'll like it. : ) (713) 461-1844

So, eye relief and parallax are just imaginary?

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

Eye relief is set when you mount the scope. If you are having issues with eye relief once the scope is mounted, you need to re-mount it. Scope mounted at the proper distance and consistent cheek weld make this a non issue.

Parallax isn't really an issue for a hunting rig. Maybe when you are shooting from a bench you are good enough to notice a little parallax error, but at 100 yards on a pig, not enough to even discuss with a quality scope. Look through the center of the scope and again, non-issue.

The point is, using a scope is much easier than aligning the front and rear sight. Most folks can tell if they are looking through the center of the scope a lot easier than they can properly align sights.

Arguing this level of minutia, particularly for the OP, is like arguing if the AR is truly direct impingement.

Thanks cyphertext,

I totally agree with you on this. I rather get a scope, hire a professional instructor to help me learn how to consistently shoot accurately 0-200 yards.

Once the mechanics is learned, I can easily return to front iron sights accuracy shooting.

Thanks

Never.

The original Stoner design was intended for optical sights out to a range of about 300 yards.

Subsequently, the carrying handle (and rear sight) were carved off the rifle. You can attach an optic to the resulting flat rail, but you need to be sure that whatever sight system you pick is permiited by the Army for inclusion on one of their duty rifles.

I've got an original Colt 4x20 optic mounted to the carry handle of my Colt AR-15 Sporter II. Is there some Colonel in the Pentagon I need to speak with . . . ?

__________________
Wisdom comes thru fear . . .

Is it time to begin the first vs second focal plane debate?

Your thread: When do I add Scope to AR15?
Short reply: Now!
Yeah learning to shoot with the peep sights that came on it is a great plan.
Buy a 22 with peep sights and save the money for a good scope. Hammering away with 5.56 or .223 on a self help mission can get expensive.
I like a 1-4 but you may want more magnification. The low magnification range on the scope gives you the same type speed on target as a Red Dot and you can crank it up for the longer pokes.
Good luck.

You got me there.

However, there are fine points of using a scope too. In order to set the eye relief, you must know what it is and how to set it. In order to compensate for parallax you must know what it is also.

Yes, I agree that a scope can be easier. It's not the magic bullet though. That's my point here.

Even so, I completely agree that there's really no reason to learn iron sights before going to a scope. If you want a scope, just get a scope.

Now, should we go into the differences between a $60 scope and a $600 scope? Or should we save that for after the frustration?

__________________
Freedom isn't free.

We're on the same page. And there are differences in scopes at different price ranges that come into play, especially for a hunting set up. That $60 Walmart scope may work fine at high noon at the range, but probably not so much half an hour before sunrise... nothing worse than hearing hogs at your feeder but not being able to see them through your scope!

I think it's time to spit out the hook on this one, guys.

The ever expanding concentric circles of density has to be deliberate. My cats have a better understanding of basic riflery. They are all jokers, too, but luckily, they haven't mastered my PC... yet.

You don't want to use just one scope on multiple rifles. The ballistics of the different rounds means every time you change rifles and re-mount the scope, you have to re-zero it. You can buy 3 of the same scopes and go that route.

__________________
Peace was my Profession

before I start on this let me apologize to the poster if this is real.
that said after rereading this thread I'm starting to believe this is some trolling going on.
you always only refer to the "front sight" not sights on your rifle, that's odd.
I've shot with and shown a bunch of new shooters the basics of shooting with rifle, pistol, and shotgun and never had anyone who had that much problem. This is even shooting crossing clays with a shotgun, so you're unique at least.
Never been to a range where there is not some self appointed "expert" that wouldn't have stopped to give you some pointers, but I'm originally from the Dallas area Huston may be different.
A Google search of peep sight / sight picture should have been able to tell you all you need to know on the subject.
Last but not least is planning a deer hunt with a 5.56 caliber you don't shoot well is just wrong. Killing deer isn't a hit anywhere takes them down using a varmint caliber takes a good hit in a vital area, you aint there. Some one suggest going to an AR-10 and .308 I'd suggest re-barrel your rifle to a .50 Beowulf and limit you shots to 10 yards.
Again if I'm wrong about this sorry but all of this just doesn't add up to a real posting.

A few thoughts on the AR-15 and shooting accurately.

1) I never had any issues qualifying with an AR-15 on head and shoulder sized targets out to 150 meters and torso sized targets from 200-350 meters, using an M16A1 and the standard iron sights. Most M16s in excellent, non abused condition would shoot about 1.5 MOA with M193 ammo, and that was about the limit of the iron sights on them

2) There is a great deal of benefit in learning to shoot well with iron sights. Aperture sights, like those on your AR-15 are easy to use as your eye will naturally center the front sight in the rear aperture. In the military, with the older M16A1 troops were taught where to hold on the target to compensate for the trajectory of the round with the 0-300m short range aperture and the 350m aperture, and if the shooter knew his stuff scoring 100 percent on the range was not a problem.

Some folk argue that a scope is "easier" and my response to that is "yes and no". A scope magnifies any instability in the shooter's position, and it can prevent the shooter from developing good trigger control.

With iron sights, you learn to accept some wobble in the prone position, and even more wobble in sitting and standing positions, and you learn to increase pressure on the trigger when the sight picture looks good and hold pressure on the trigger when the sight picture looks bad. That results in the shot always breaking when the sight picture looks good and is trending toward "better".

With a scope, the magnified wobble tends to lead shooter so jerking the trigger when the cross hairs are moving through the target. That doesn't work well and those shooters end up shooting ok from a bench or off a rest, but never shoot well in traditional position shooting or in the field where a solid rest can be hard to find.

My advice is to learn to use iron sights first. Once you are shooting 3-4" groups at 100 yards from an unsupported prone position, then worry about getting a scope. If you absolutely feel you want one now, get one with a maximum magnification of no more than 4x. A 3x or 1.5 to 4x scope where you can dial down the magnification is better.

3) The only challenge in shooting a perfect score on a military qualification range was sometimes seeing a freshly placed green target against the green foliage through the smaller long range aperture. After the target had been there awhile, the poorer shooters chewed up enough dirt around and behind the target to make them stand out. It supports the old adage that you can't hit what you can't see and that's the advantage a scope can offer.

4) Most folks put way too much magnification on a rack grade AR. Yes, one of my varmint ARs with a 20" bull barrel has a 6.5-20 on it, but my Match AR, one of my 20" pencil barrel ARs, and all but one of my carbines all have iron sights. The scoped AR in the rack has a 1-4x24mm scope on it, along with back up iron sights. My other 20" pencil barrel AR has a 4x20 Colt scope on it.

I'm not a fan of the P223 series in general, but if you get one, stay with the 1.5-4x20 or the 3x32 scopes. You don't need or want a 3-9x40 or a 4-12x40 scope on a 16" AR-15 carbine. You certainly don't need anymore than 3x or 4 x to hunt deer out to 300 yards. The Burris AR332 is also a good option for an AR-15 carbine:



5) Be aware that putting a scope on an AR changes the cheek weld. The standard rifle stocks and carbine tele-stocks are designed for a nose to carry handle cheek weld with the carry handle mounted sights and rail mounted dot sights. Scopes with large objective bells end up being mounted higher even on a picatinny rail and you have to adjust for that.

With a carry handle mounted scope like the original 4x20 or 3x20 Colt scopes, you end up with your chin almost on the stock to get an adequate cheek weld, but it works.



6) Texas is pretty liberal when it comes to allowable cartridges. As long as it's not a rim fire round, they allow it. That however does not make it a great idea. A .22 Hornet can be used to effectively take deer, but it requires a well placed neck shot. I put the faster but still small .223 Remington in the same category.

Yes, the .223 Rem can be ethically used to humanely take deer, but it requires a very skilled shooter who also has the discipline to pass on shots that are in less than perfect conditions. Those words do not accurately describe 95% of the hunters I see in the field. If anyone reading this thinks he or she is in that other 5%, he or she is probably overestimating his or her ability.