I have a question about guide rods. I know on Glocks that they have plastic guide rods and they will go tens of thousands of rounds without fail. However, my concern is the design on the plastic guide rod on my SD9VE. I've attached pics and you can see where the guide rod meets the part of the barrel where it's held in place, it's bent. I'm going to assume that bending plastic isn't going to be a very reliable thing. I would like to note that I have had several glock 17's and the plastic guide rods in them fit flush so they aren't being bent just sitting still. If my SD9VE plastic guide rod also fit flush like the glock I would just leave it stock and not mess with it but knowing that it doesn't fit flush and that I have a bent piece of plastic in my gun doesn't make me feel like it's safe and reliable.

I don't want a gun that's not going to be reliable. I'm also going to assume the stainless replacement rods will take away this "bending" issue and it will be stronger and less chance to break or fail.

IMG_0286.jpg

A quick search on Amazon and found a Galloway Precision stainless steel guide rod replacement for $35 shipped and with 77 reviews with a review rating of 4.9 our of 5 stars I'm not seeing where I could go wrong. Any input on this? Also, should I go for stock 17lb spring or 20lb spring?

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I've bought a few SS captured guide rods for my Glocks.
Always ended up going back to stock plastic.
Every one of the SS guide rods I've tried for Glocks ended up having the allen head screw working it's way out of the end of the guide rod.
I'd take the bending plastic rod over losing a set screw and making the gun inoperable..



I've bought a few Sigs with plastic guide rods.
Replaced them with solid SS guide rods, only because of my OCD, the plastic ones worked fine.
But SS Sig rods are solid, no screw on the end....


If you go the SS guide rod, keep an eye on that set screw..

You are wrong. The stock guide rod assemblies are low failure rate items, and are more reliable than the aftermarket non-captive steel rods and piano wire springs. Most stock assemblies are replaced based on perception, not failures.

The Galloway captive assemblies are excellent products, and give great service, but cost over 3 times as much as the stock recoil assembly.

Buy yourself a spare trigger spring for sure, because they fail much more often than recoil assemblies. My comments are based on using SW/SD pistols as loaners and trainers for over 15 yrs.

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Science plus Art

The attached image is probably going to be what happens to my guide rod should i keep it stock. I could understand it breaking overtime if it was flush and only being bent under stress during the firing cycle, however that's not the case. The plastic guide rod in my SD9VE isn't positioned properly from the factory, it's not sitting flush therefore it's bent just from the pressure of it being in it's natural position. This means that it's bent just sitting there so during the firing cycle it would only bend even more. This is how I could see a failure and the end of it to break off just like shown in the attached pic.

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Regardless of whether you decide to buy a Galloway, I'd contact S&W and ask for a replacement recoil assembly under warranty because yours appears defective.

If you want to buy any of the Galloway products simply because it is your preference, by all means do so. Galloway is a good company with quality products. However, there is no need to pretend that the gun is going to fly apart if you don't use aftermarket products; just buy whatever you want and can afford.

Personally, I would (and did) buy an M&P Pro for heavy competition use rather than spend much money modifying a SW/SD. Your money, your choice.

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Science plus Art

When the pistol is assembled the guide rod is not touching the barrel lug as it does when the slide is removed. The base of the rod is seated in it's "bed" in the frame and supported. That "issue" is really a non-issue unless you absolutely have to change it to a steel guide rod. The only thing about a steel guide rod is that it will not flex like the factory guide rod is designed to do while firing.

Bill

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Remember the Alamo!

And the front of the spring rests against the slide, not against the actual end of the guiderod. Any part, regardless of materials used to manufacture, will fail at some point in time. But again, the stock parts have quite a long track record of reliability. If you absolutely must change it out for peace of mind, then go for it. Nobody will change your mind otherwise. For my SD40-VE, pretty much the only thing I may change are the sights. May get a set of fiber optics for it for helping my eyes find them easier.

L8R,
Matt

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SD40-VE owner and proud of it!

Hi,
Just a thought. I had posted (I believe here) years ago about a frame failure I had on my ~2000 SW40E. Around 2004, while at the range, the slide slid off the end of the frame and landed on the ground. I noticed that the locking bar portion of the frame had basically dissintegrated or crumbled apart.

Why this happened I can't say. But I will tell you what I did prior. I had soon after purchase, replaced the guide rod with a steel captured rod
(I believe from ISMI). It was I believe a heavier spring. It was recommended as to reduce recoil. I had also used gunscrubber to hose it out following range sessions.

This was not a high round count gun. I would say less than 3K rounds or so.

S&W took it back and replaced the frame free of charge. I have since put the original spring back in and left it stock (with the exception of an Apex trigger kit recently installed).

I can not tell you if the spring was at fault. What I can tell you is that I believe it is best to leave firarms stock... for the most part anyway. This was a carry gun, and I should not have messed with it. A range gun then whatever.

I believe this inforation to be accurate, as I posted the original so long ago. I will try to pull it up.

In any case, your spring looks comple7ely normal.

Regards,

-Coop

Coop,

I changed my guide rod in my sd9ve to a ss and noticed that my frame was showing some possible hammering on the polymer area right in front of the take down/locking plate. I firmly believe that since the factory guide rod is designed to flex during recoil, once I changed it to the ss one the rigid end was pounding the frame and if I continued to use it mine could have broke apart as yours did.

I had changed springs and triggers and other things but now both my 9 and 40 are factory (except for the tritium night sights) and I do not plan to change anything else out.

Bill

__________________
Remember the Alamo!

I'm a fan of the stock guide rod. I'm confident that it will work every time.

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SD9VE, American perfection!

Replacement guide rods are an answer to a question no one is asking. Like the after market FLGRs made for the 1911, they serve no purpose. If you really feel afraid of a failure, just get a spare. I bet you will never need it.

When my Glock 19 was new, I had frequent failures to go into battery with factory ammunition. I suspected that flex in the guide rod was depriving the slide of the force it needed to consistently return to battery.

I made my own guide rod by turning a hex-bolt to the proper dimensions, installed it in the gun and the stoppages vanished. I've since gone to captive spring systems.

got the replacement guide rod in today, fits perfectly, and guess what, NO BENDING!!! can't wait to shoot it.

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I'm looking at my M&P 9 and wondering why it doesn't have a plastic guide rod? Hmm, maybe because they wised up?

watch the video below from the start of the video until 1:30

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSQOB93GgUg

start watching @ 3:30 in the video below

Tungsten Guide Rods - YouTube

a quick google search and you can find MANY people who have been to the range and their plastic guide rod failed them.

Broken guide rod after two months of use. - AR15.Com Archive

the problem here is, what if these people weren't at the range? what if they were officers on duty? what if they were using their gun on someone breaking in their home?

I just wouldn't put that much faith in tiny piece of plastic.

.

Because the SD9VE is like a value series to the M&P. Cheaper parts = cheaper gun. They've had value series guns in the past..... and parts got swapped then too...

I get that, I believe the VE actually stands for "Value Enhanced". However, I was wondering why the M&P doesn't come with a plastic guide rod if there is nothing wrong with them? I honestly believe that the M&P got the upgrade because this is the first upgrade for most glock owners, as many glocks have had broken plastic guide rods., a quick google search will show you that.

I fully trust plastic guide rods, I don't think I could afford the ammo required to see a failure. Also on at least two of my guns that I upgraded to a metal guide rod I am seeing a good amount of wear in the front of the slide where the guide rod is wobbling out the hole. I'd much rather buy a new plastic guide rod vs new slide.

As to why the M&P line comes with a metal guide rod it's the same reason it comes with metal sights as the gun cost $200-250 more. Take away all the upgrades the M&P has over the sigma/SD then there is no point in buying the M&P

I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I'm trying to figure something out. On one hand you're saying a metal guide rod wears out the internals of the gun and can cause it to damage the slide. But, on the other hand, you're saying the M&P has a metal guide rod because it's an "upgrade".

So, it's an "upgrade" that "wears out" your gun?

There is a huge difference between a factory part and after market. After market parts don't fit exact. You seem to be really concerned about the recoil spring so why not replace it then? It's a sub $300 gun what are you expecting? Besides there are plenty of much higher quality and price range handguns that come with polymer guide rods.

Agreed, the Glock for example is a higher quality and higher priced gun that also comes factory with a polymer guide rod. However, the most popular first "upgrade" glock owners do to their gun is replace the polymer guide rod as it's common knowledge in the glock world that the polymer guide rods do break as mentioned by glock themselves in the videos above.

And I'm not concerned about the "recoil spring" I'm concerned about a bending plastic guide rod and we all know plastic that bends also weakens and eventually breaks.

I bought my SD9VE for $319 at Academy Sports last week, put a $35 stainless guide rod and now feel that I have a very reliable $355 gun. And would suggest to all owners that have plastic guide rods that a stainless replacement should be done for reliability. There's been many many guide rods break on glocks and like I mentioned earlier, if the gun fails at the range then that's fine but what if it fails when it's needed in a self defense situation? As a matter of fact, the SD part in our gun stands for "Self Defense". You would think that with how anal gun owners are with owning a gun in general that we should all agree on reliability and that should be the main focus point. We're talking about a tool used for self defense, not a wrench for a car.

Just a suggestion.

I have a stainless captured guide rod in my SD9. I put it there because that's the way I wanted it. I could find nothing about the original plastic one that I could criticize except that it just wasn't what I wanted. I'm sure that if S&W engineers thought that the SD needed a steel rod, they would have given it one. But, to me, there is a warm and fuzzy feeling knowing that there is a steel one in my gun. No other reason is needed.

I wouldn't exactly call glock a high quality gun by any means

Quality: the standard of something as measured against other things of a similar kind; the degree of excellence of something.

I would say Glock is of very high quality. Their reputation has been built upon it.

I've owned Glocks for decades. They are reliable, reasonably priced, service grade weapons. High quality? Not really. But then again, high quality comes with a price. Wilson 1911's are two to three times the cost of a Glock (for example).

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Centennial Every Day

I've owned GLOCKS since 1987 in 9mm, .40 & .45 calibers none of which have had plastic guide rod failures.

The same holds true for a the S&W SD9VE's I have which have surpassed the 3,000 round mark without a hic-up.

But that's me; if one feels more confident in their carry piece by utilizing a stainless steel guide rod, then go in peace.

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NULLI SECUNDUS

I think you're mistaking quality with luxury.....

I don't believe that a BMW or Cadillac can compete mile for mile with a Honda......

Just like I don't think a Kimber, Sig or a custom make can compete shot for shot with a Glock.....

.

I believe you, but in hind sight, plastic guide rods have been know to break, and by little research on the web it's easy to see that many people have experienced broken plastic guide rods.

Chances are mine would last 10,000 rounds even though it's bending and it's brand new. But, I just don't want to chance it so I feel safer knowing I have a stainless guide rod in its place.

This thread has derped.

Hopefully the OP has come to a decision.

I just wanted to clarify something: if you lose the retaining screw at the end of a captured guide rod setup, the gun does not become inoperable at all. In fact, it will continue to function just the same. The function of the retaining screw at the end of the guide rod is to retain the recoil spring during take down, so that it's easier to assemble (and so that the chances of the guide rod rocketing across the room when you take it down are eliminated). If you examine closely the retaining screw at the end of the guide rod, once the gun is assembled, you'll see that the retaining screw doesn't contact the spring at all. The end of the spring rests against the back of the front slide lug. You can completely remove the retaining screw and leave it off; the only compromise is you have to be more careful at take down and reassembly will be slightly more difficult.

Both plastic and metal can fail sometimes plastic is better as if there is any flaw in the metal it will break at that point. With plastic the stress will be absorbed and distributed evenly more or less. Watch a slow motion vid of any poly gun the frame whips up and down with every shot.

ruthless_robie, what rate spring did you go with? I wouldn't use a heavier spring unless you're shooting hot ammo all the time. The heavier the spring, the slower the slide moves rearward, and the more likely it is that you'll get failures to eject. If you commonly shoot 115 gr, (for 9mm) target ammo, I'd use the stock spring or even lighter. I'd only use the heavier spring if you're always shooting 147 gr or +P loads.

Either way, be sure to thoroughly test the gun with the ammo you will carry or keep loaded in it to ensure that it's "tuned" right.

I have a CZ P-09 that came from the factory with an 18 pound spring and I have a 13 pound spring in it now. Ejection patterns are improved with the 115 gr target ammo I shoot and I'm back on target quicker as well. Some guys go as low as 11 pound springs, but I'm happy with the 13 pounder.

My observation of this post is as follows
Plastic guide rods bend. This is true. Metal guide rods don't bend. This could be true. Just remember that anything man made WILL fail at some
Point. Wether it be a guide rod , an engine bolt, or a space shuttle.if man made it, at some point it will fail.
Now if buying a metal guide rod makes you feel better, then do it! If it helps you shoot better, and that's what your looking for, then buy it.
Just remember that because something cost more, does not mean it's higher quality or more reliable.A Lamborghini Diablo is a high dollar car. Yet, a ford fusion ( which is a lot slower) is better quality and more reliable. Bottom line is, Enjoy what you have. And if upgrading it makes you happy then do it.
Nuff said.

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Im never wrong, just ask me!

The full size Beretta, both military and civilian, are equipped with plastic guide rods from the factory. I haven't heard of any issues even though a metal rod is available as a replacement part for those who want one. This is one of the most tested guns on the market.

Even CZs are shipped with plastic guide rods. It's a weight savings and a cost cutting measure to lower production cost/increase profits.

It depends on the model. My CZ P-09 came with a full steel guide rod assembly.

You had me until you paired the words Ford Fusion with quality and reliable in the same sentence. hahaha

Well, this whole thread leaves me confused. How do we know the plastic guide rod bends? Have we seen it bend during firing?

Do we know for sure that a metal guide rod tends to break a polymer frame?

With respect to price and quality I drive an SL500 (bought used). My wife drives an ML320. Both are expensive cars but very prone to failure and costly to repair. Before the SL500 I went through 4 new Corvettes. Yes, I did, but I'm 82 years old so I did indeed own 4 Corvettes. Less expensive than the SL500 but none of them had the continuing, and expensive, problems the MB's have.

Price doesn't guaranty reliability.

Anyhow, is there a firm answer to the guide rod question for the SD9VE?

X-ray anybody? I worked one summer in Long Beach Naval Shipyard and one of my jobs was to X-ray welds on ships using a portable X-ray unit. In between jobs we X-rayed things for fun because we could adjust the voltage to match the job. I used to have an X-ray of my watch but it's long gone.

Anyhow, I wonder whether anyone on this list has the means to X-ray an SD VE gun to see exactly how the parts lay out when it is assembled and in various positions? I would like to know exactly where the end of the guide rod is when the slide is open and when it is closed, and would like to see the position of the striker and it's links when the gun is in various conditions.

I know it can be done but it might take several shots with different exposures and voltages to get all the details. The plastic parts are relatively transparent to X-rays. The metal parts would require higher voltages and longer exposures. Not sure that modern X-ray systems, mostly all digital, have such controls, but if someone has the ability to get some shots it would probably help all of us and cover several questions that we have asked.

If you remove your slide from your frame and take out the recoil spring and barrel, take the spring assembly and lay it in the frame channel with the back end against the U shaped area that it sits in. Then take the barrel and hold the little hook on the bottom of the lug against the take down lever. When you hold the barrel level with the frame you can see a 1/16 to 1/8 inch gap between the guide rod end and barrel lug. Slowly slide the barrel rearward and the lug will engage the locking cam and be forced downward and out of battery ultimately widening that gap. Of course the spring would be compressed when the slide is on but this will just help explain where the guide rod end makes contact during the firing cycle.

One way to see where the striker lug rests when the slide is racked is to remove the slide from the frame and just sit it on top of the frame rails. It will create a gap enough to see in to and when you align the slide to the frame as it would be in battery you can see that the striker is held approximately half way pulled back by the sear.

These are not as extravagant as an X-ray but you can kind of tell how things function.

Bill

__________________
Remember the Alamo!

Bill - I have done a lot of such comparisons trying to see just where things sit in battery and when open. The main conclusion I reached is that the takedown lever/bar takes a serious beating when the gun is fired. It takes loads in both directions.

I saw another post somewhere that said the gun had failed at the takedown lever/bar point. I believe it.

When fired the part of the slide that surrounds the guide rod actually hits a part of the frame and takes the pounding. When the slide goes forward it is the force caused by the recoil spring that pushes it into the take down lever.

At one time I was looking at possible spring stacking , where when the spring is compressed all the way and is pretty much solid, and if the spring is too long causing the guide rod to hit the part in front of the take down lever. I could see stacking causing that part of the frame to weaken but after closer inspection of the steel guide rod assembly the spring is just the right size.

Bill

__________________
Remember the Alamo!

I have a 17lb rated Galloway Precision guide rod in my first SD9VE, and was planning to purchase a Galloway guide rod for a second SD9VE. After reading this thread, I think I will hold off and keep the polymer guide rod in the second SD9VE.

Thanks for the great information.

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Jackdaddy63
SD9VE, Model 10-4

I have the Galloway 17lb guide rod in my SD9. I love my SD9 and I've never had an issue with it but unlike my Glocks polymer guide rod I felt the SD9's felt a little to weak in my hands. I think it's more a personal thing than anything else but it makes me feel better.... Isn't that what it's all about?... Lol

I own sd40ve. First thing i did was steel guide rod and apex trigger kit. Maybe just a personal thing but I didn't want to take the chance. The gun operates reliably day to day. I absolutely love that gun and would trust my life to it.

I'm unable to see the plastic guide rod in my SD9VE bend. Also, I can see that the spring sits in a slot when the gun is assembled so there is no bending force on the guide rod in an assembled gun.

How do I go about seeing the plastic rod bend?

FWIW - My Galloway rod now has about a thousand of my reloads through its gun. It continues to function perfectly, as does the gun. I have no doubt that the OEM guide would have also been fine. I just like the stainless one better.

I think that what we have all learned is that the SD series is a rugged and reliable platform that continues to function in spite of what we do to it. I think the S&W guys should get a pat on the back for having created the Ford F-150 of no-nonsense handguns. It just does its job.

Now that is an EXCELLENT analogy!

L8R,
Matt

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SD40-VE owner and proud of it!

I have been debating a few different upgrades on my SD40VE. I have owned it for about a year, and did a good 3 months of nightly research on it prior to purchasing it. I havent had any issues, but i think that a SS rod is probably gonna make me feel better. Maybe i am just channeling my inner old fart, but i think metal will probably out-do plastics....

I think that's the gun that the U.S. government has purchased 600,000 units and has recently ordered 100,000 more. If that's correct someone on this forum must have some information on whether any used by the government have had to have the plastic guide rods replaced.

I do admit that for me a metal rod is attractive but mostly just for looks. I have no way to see whether the plastic rod bends but it seems to be properly supported on both ends.

MY question here was not if the polymer rod will last or if the steel is better, but what changing the spring to lighter or stronger would do. I could not get a clear enough reason to justify buying the $30 rod & spring.
I was just looking around you tube & saw this one where the guy says he put a glock rod & spring in a SD9ve.
Is this true ? Does anyone know ? If it is so would they not be cheeper what with the glock after market being so big ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZggq88yK90