DeKalb police beef up firepower
By Megan Matteucci


The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

8:05 p.m. Sunday, January 24, 2010

Gangs and drug traffickers have ditched their pistols for assault rifles and other military-style firearms, leaving police outgunned.

To beef up its arsenal, DeKalb County Police is trading in its 9 mm handguns for .40-caliber weapons, which are more effective.

Last week, the county commission approved the purchase of 1,200 Smith & Wesson .40-caliber handguns to replace the force’s Berettas.

“A common weapon on the streets is a .40-caliber,” acting DeKalb police Chief William O’Brien said. “We’re a little behind the times with the 9 mm.”

Most officers in the metro area, and across the nation, carry .40-caliber handguns. Some, like DeKalb, give officers the option to carry higher-powered weapons as long as they are trained.

For O’Brien, the problem was two-fold : The department’s 9 mm Berettas were more than 20 years old and no longer manufactured.

“We couldn’t replace them,” he said.

Officers on the streets also found their 9 mm guns could not compete with those in the hands of criminals armed with .40-caliber handguns and assault rifles.

“We got some pretty heinous weapons,” DeKalb District Attorney Gwen Keyes Fleming said. “We’re seeing AK-47s, street sweepers, military style weapons. It’s not just your mom’s pistol any more.”

Last year, the county tested weapons from four different manufacturers who submitted bids.

“We brought all of the weapons to the range,” O’Brien said. “Officers could go shoot each one and fill out a survey. This model was chosen by the majority officers.”

Commissioner Lee May said he was pleased the decision was made by officers, not the administration.

“They chose what’s best for them,” he said. “It’s about the officers being safe.”

The $207,475 contract will pay for 1,200 guns, holsters and magazines to outfit the department.

Atlanta Police officers also carry .40-caliber Smith & Wesson guns. The department is considering arming its force with assault rifles, but is still doing research on the benefits of the weapons, said Officer Otis Redmond, a police spokesman.

DeKalb’s SWAT team, which is armed with MP5, 9 mm submachine guns, is usually called out any time officers encounter suspects with high-caliber weapons.

Patrol officers, however, have the option of increasing their firepower.

DeKalb allows an officer to purchase his or her own AR-15, a semi-automatic rifle similar to an M16. The officer can carry it on duty only after passing a specific 40-hour training class and qualifying at the county’s range, O’Brien said.

Firearms experts say most law-enforcement agencies across the nation are moving toward the .40-caliber because it can stop a threat more effectively.

“This bullet is slower than the 9 mm but is bigger and has more impact,” DeKalb deputy Chief Diane Loos said.

Bullets expand like an umbrella when they strike the tissue. Because the new bullets are larger – the 9 mm is about a third of an inch in diameter, while the .40-caliber is slightly wider – they go deeper and cause a larger wound, according to John Finor, first vice president of the Association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners.

“The .40 will have a much larger projectile,” Finor said. “Your chances of stopping an aggressive action or someone who is a threat is much greater.”

Finor, who retired from Philadelphia Police after 32 years, serves as the firearms examiner for the Montgomery County, Penn., district attorney, testing bullets for about 50 different police agencies.

Finor said many law enforcement agencies across the nation began looking at increasing firepower in the late 1990s after Los Angeles Police officers were outgunned during a bank robbery and shootout.

“For firepower, we’re seeing lots of patrol officers starting to carry AR-15s and other patrol rifles because of the threat of coming in contact with the assault rifle,” Finor said. “When you see major cities allowing officers to carry patrol rifles, that speaks volumes about the crime situation.”

O’Brien said his officers routinely come in contact with assault rifles and other “serious” weapons.

In September, DeKalb officers arrested a man who had slipped out of handcuffs and stolen a Duluth police cruiser. When apprehended, he was carrying an AR-15 that he had stolen from the Duluth officer, police said.

“The criminal element has more powerful weapons. We want equal firepower. It’s just a sign of the time,” said Commissioner Larry Johnson, the commission’s presiding officer. “If it protects one officer, it’s a worthy investment.”

In 2009, 47 officers were shot and killed in the line of duty in the U.S. – a 24-percent increase from the previous year, according to the National Law Enforcement Memorial Fund.

In April, three Pittsburgh officers were killed and twowounded after a man armed with an AK-47 opened fire during a standoff. A month earlier, three officers died in Oakland, Calif., when a suspect opened fire with an assault rifle.

“We’ve been lucky that we haven’t had any casualties, but we want to be prepared,” O’Brien said.

Box:

What are they packing?

DeKalb Police: .40-cal. Smith & Wesson

DeKalb Sheriff: .40-cal. H&K

Atlanta Police: .40-cal. Smith & Wesson

Fulton Police: .45-cal. Glock

Clayton Sheriff: .40-cal. Glock

Clayton Police: .40-cal. Glock

Cobb Police: .40-cal.

Gwinnett Police: 9 mm*

*Officers can purchase higher-caliber weapons on their own.

That price works out to $172.89 each for gun, holster and accessories. That's a pretty good price for a .40 M&P. Curious the value of the trade in allowance for the old Beretta's.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

It's hard to believe at a minimum of one new holster an M&P .40 for that price. S&W has to give them $200 for trade in and that's a stretch.

Seems the civilian market is really getting ripped. Not a little mark up, but a bunch.

Departments do not pay Fed Excise tax and to sell a major department is good advertising for S&W. S&W has done this with serveral agencies ,look patches in some of the current magazine ads.

When I was on the job I had to buy my own equipment. I figured out that it cost me about $125 just to put on my pistol belt, with holster, mag pouch, mace carrier and cuff pouch. That did not include the cost of my weapon, mags and ammo. The cost of a good shoulder holster for off duty wasn't cheap either. Either the gun is a giveaway or the PD news clip is in error about actual costs for accessories.
I wouldn't want to absorb the training costs for a new pistol and first time qualification either. Toyman has a good point about taxes and advertisements.

What 9mm Berettas were they using 20 years ago that are no longer manufactured? The Model 92, which they were probably using, is still in production and will likely be so for many years.

This whole piece just seems so sophomorish to me. Coming from the Alanta Urinal and Constipation I'm sure it is a bit jaded. How can the Dekalb Co officers be "out gunned" yet the U.S. Military, armed with 9mm Berettas on the battle field are not? It's pure tactics, and the article already explained that when the patrol officers come across criminals with military style rifles or automatic weapons, they simply call in the SWAT. Its laughable that the article implies that these same officers are going to be adequately armed with a .40 cal hand gun against these same military style rifles. If "bigger" is "better" as the article says, why not just move up to the proven 45ACP? I know I am preaching to the choir on here, but these type of articles are just so cheesy and seemed aimed at the Brady Bunch type of gullable anti-gunowner readers.

Trading in a 9mm for a .40 ain't gonna help against an AK.

just sayin'...

I'm glad to see that they're upgrading. Anything to help ensure
that they all get to go home after their shift. Was just wondering, tho,
about the perceived threat that this upgrade is trying to meet.
While there's no doubt in my mind that the Bad Guys have lots of
powerful and advanced weaponry, I don't remember hearing about
blood-bath shoot-outs where the weapons were that much of a factor.
Is this something that doesn't get publicised?
Whatever the case, more power to the LEO's for getting a voice
in weapon selection.
TACC1

The 1986 FBI Miami Shootout

Good for them although I don't see going to the .40 from the 9mm as being an upgrade, YMMV though.

Two comments:

1. Police are CIVILIANS. There is either military or civilians. Police, despite wanting, perhaps, to be military, are not. They are civilians. What you might have meant is that the COMMERCIAL market is getting ripped.

2. It is not unusual for the commercial market to get ripped at the expense of the government contract. When the military adopted the Beretta in 1985, the price per pistol was comfortably UNDER $200.00 while the commercial dealer price was well over twice that amount.

So full of misinformation its not even funny. Glad to see another department switch to the M&P but saying the main reason is that they were outgunned by the .40cal........

No one tell them that badguys have access to the potent 44mag or there going to have to upgrade to S&W500s.

Also noticed that they are being outgunned by their own guns at are stolen (thug escapes, steals police cruiser with AR15)! What logic is that statement supposed to mean. I also want to know what Beretta they have is no longer in production (they buy 9mm Cougers?)

CD

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De Oppresso Liber

They were possibly using the 92D. Up here, agencies are dropping Beretta's 96D faster than one can imagine because Beretta won't provide parts support. Most are going to Glocks, mostly due to cost and tupperware envy, unfortunatly my agency went with the PX-4D, it pains me to say this, but I would have taken a Glock over this beast.

Gimme a Gran Fury with a 440, an 8-track player for the slow nights, and a 4 inch K frame 357 and I'll be just fine.

[QUOTE=shawn mccarver;1276650]Two comments:

1. Police are CIVILIANS. There is either military or civilians. Police, despite wanting, perhaps, to be military, are not. They are civilians. What you might have meant is that the COMMERCIAL market is getting ripped.

QUOTE]

No, sorry, you're wrong.


Main Entry: ci·vil·ian
Pronunciation: \sə-ˈvil-yən also -ˈvi-yən\
Dunction8 noun
Date: 14th century
1 : a specialist in Roman or modern civil law
2 a : one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force b : outsider 1

Typical thinking......

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Don't look, reload and shoot!

Is the .40 really the finger of god when it comes to stopping fights? No, but neither is our beloved .45. There is very little evidence proving what caliber is most or least effective, shot placement is what will stop fights fastest, every single time. And besides, if the officers get a psychological advantage from carrying the .40 that makes them better warriors, then by all means they need to be sliding a .40 into that holster at the start of their shifts. If they feel that a .40 will give them the extra edge in eliminating a threat then thats what they should have.

As for any Atlanta slant, I don't know because I don't live there, but as for a .40 over a 9mm. Well, ballistics data has proven that it is far more effective at creating serious bodily harm over a 9mm. I read one ballistics data report several years ago, that showed that a .40cal had a 94 percent kill ratio at 15 yards, the same as a .45cal. That is shot placement, bullet characteristics, brand, ect, are the same.

Now, as for me I'm a .45cal guy. As my baptism to guns in the 1980's Marine Corps was with the 1911's and also experienced the transition to the Barreta 92 9mm's, I always remember thinking, that there needed to be a happy medium between these two, because, I always thought there was no way in hell this 9mm is going to have the impact of a .45 freight train. I will admit, the 9mm was very accurate, but I had already learned to shoot expert with the .45, so the barreta was a piece of cake.
As for LE, and I am no LE officer, but I have read and heard many cases, for years, that the 9mm was insufficent at stopping and drugged up, hyped up perp. I personnally have many LEO living in my neighborhood and have discussed the caliber issue, and everyone of them prefers the .40cal over the 9mm. I'm not picking on 9mm, because I bought one for my daughter, because the .40 was to much for her and scared her, but caliber is just like displacement in engines, the bigger the round or motor, the more punch or horsepower. It's just simple physics.
With all this said, most important thing is to arm yourselves. Any and all guns are effective as a deterent against 90 percent of the general perps out there. Just the sight of a gun stops most in there tracks.

God Bless JMB and the 1911 hand canons. The bigger the hole the better.

Cheers

You forgot to add the 6 cell Kel-Lite, slapjack, and being allowed to use the carotid restraint hold......oh the good ole days!!

DeKalb PD needed new handguns. They had to sell the idea to the County Commission...so, how do you do that??? Telling the Commission that our guns have reached the end of their service life is a waste of time. So you have to have "examples" of "why" you need to replace the pistols..it is called politics....

I wonder if these are the used Berettas JG is currently selling.

Beretta

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Dave

I remember what Dekalb PD carried before the 92's......Model 25-5, 4 inch 45LC!!. I have one of the trade ins....narrow and grooved service trigger, and a service hammer, not a target.....and they sent them back for narrower charge holes. On e of my favorite possessions.

In the past 20 years Beretta has done 2 frame design changes to save money. The problem come that companies have stoped making holsters and accessories for the older frames.

I agree that S&W is probably giving them a major price break as an advertising tool. Years back when Glock wanted to get into Illinois several departments were offered Glock 17, 6 mags, holster and mag pouch at $75.00 per officer.

I suspect that they were carrying the Beretta Cougar since that model was indeed discontinued by Beretta.

I think it's crazy that the only "real" example of being outgunned that they cited was where an officers AR-15 was stolen from a stolen cruiser. Had that officer not had an AR in his car then they would not have been outgunned.

This article is so full of complete BS it makes my head hurt.

The idea that a 9mm is puny while the .40 or .45 is a Death Ray/the Hammer of God is retarded and will get cops killed (or anybody else that believes this and counts on it to be true).

Sorry folks, the .40 and .45 fail just like everything else, and just as often. We are talking pistols here, not real guns like rifles and 12 gauge shotguns. Pistols poke holes in people, that's about it.

If the guns were old and worn out due to daily carry, use and abuse, just say so, the anti-gun "we gotta keep up with the bad guys" BS is nothing but BS.

The .45 doesn't have the impact of a freight train????

1) Newer testing shows that the differences between 9mm and .40 is small

2) I have never heard a .40 or a .45 to have no 94% rate. The only round that I heard that up that high is the .357 mag in 125 grain

3) I've ready a story of a cop that had a Glock .45 that got into a gun fight with a guy that wasn't drugged up or drunk and pumped him with 13 .45acp rounds with the 13th round going in the guys head before the guy went down. If I remember right, 2 or 3 of those rounds entered the guys chest. (If anyone know what site that report was on, post it)

4) Since you wanted to make the comparison, my turbo V6 (like a +p 9mm) can keep up or out run most V8 (like .40)

5) Just like 10mm, the .45s are not hand cannons. In fact there really isn't a handgun that earns that title (Yes even the .500SW). A true hand cannon can be found in rifles and shotguns.



I hope that no one gets into a gun fight but if someone do with the type of thinking that a lot of folks here have..... they will be really disappointed when their rounds don't blow off a human body part.

__________________
Don't look, reload and shoot!

No, more like a Mack truck

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Don't look, reload and shoot!

The 9mm is what it is, a product improvement over the .30 Luger which left even Europeans less than impressed. In automatic weapons, etc., the 9mm has been heavily used and, like any military round, has found wide civilian acceptance. For better or worse, it is a round that will endure to the crack of doom. There are better choices.

The .40 S&W did not spring out of the brow of Samuel Colt. Perhaps that is the reason some can not seem to accept it. Rather it is the result of S&W seeing just how big a round they could get into a 9mm frame while maintaining more than the limited capacity of traditional single-stack magazines. That they succeeded is a fact of history. The .40 S&W is grit in the eye of those who either can't get over the inadequacy of the 9mm or else think that ballistic theory and development begins and ends with Taylor Knock Down values. The simply facts of life are that the .40 S&W in a good design (Glock G-22, M&P, Sig, etc.) is just about everything anyone could want for SD/HD or LE use. Other than extreme scenarios one might read in the equivalent of "True Crime," the .40 S&W is going to be more than equal to the task of whatever a civilian or officer might face. For instances such as the 1997 North Hollywood the notorious 1997 shootout, the idea that a handgun of any sort will suffice is ludicrous.

As far as this or any other agency adopting a Glock, M&P, etc., the decision is almost invariably made by those whose concerns are mostly focused on budget. The idea that use by LEO agencies determines which is the better design is as ridiculous as when the same logic was used to say either the Colt or S&W .38 revolver designs were superior.

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<><

Price wise, it's very common for the manufacturers to take it on the chin, write it off, etc. with major agencies when it comes to the pricing of pistols. Advertising is the key and it becomes one more feather in their proverbial cap. That said...there is still a tremendous mark-up in these guns to the civilian market.

Marcus88,
I've seen people hit with trucks (and freight trains now that I think about it) and people hit with .45s. The only failures to stop were with the .45.

brucev,
I don't believe any handgun cartridge is a good choice to take to a fight, I'd much rather have an M4 or a .308. Handguns come into play due to portability and convenience; we can always be armed with one whereas not so with a rifle or shotgun.

That said, I do not believe the 9mm with modern LE ammo is "inadequate." In fact, it may offer some advantages to some users over the .40, .45, or 357 SIG. Many agencies still use the 9mm and are satisfied with the results in their OISs. I am issued a .40 but would have no qualms carrying a 9mm.

By all means, use what you prefer and have confidence in. To each his own. But, I don't believe you can write off the 9mm as inadequate any more so than the other service calibers.

I remember those, too! Before that, they carried .357, I believe. Back when the company I co-owned had a contract with Dekalb to guard their prisoners at Grady, we guarded a guy that had 18 holes in him from those guns. I think that had something to do with them going to the 45LC.