Experiences with S&W stainless steel .45's

This thread is in response to a forum members request regarding S&W .45 use,

In the summer of 1985 I was assigned to a twenty man surveillance unit[SIS]. Prior to this I had spent nearly eight years as a SWAT operator and tactical firearms instructor.
The surveillance teams primary handguns were S&W .38 revolvers. SIS had experimented with the Colt 1911a1 .45. Several members told me they didn't feel comfortable carrying a handgun "cocked and locked". Besides my full time duties as a surveillance detective, I became the SIS firearms and tactics instructor. In late 1985 or early 1986 I obtained a prototype S&W Model 645 for testing purposes.
One or two training sessions later "almost everyone" agreed this was a .45 pistol they wanted to carry! Permission was granted by the "brass" and 18 members of SIS purchased S&W Model 645's for duty use.
Members of the unit went through an intensive training and qualification process before the weapons were deployed in the field.

Sidenote: SIS had "flirted" with the 1911's because no one felt the .38 special was an adequate caliber if your primary job was to confront armed criminals. The shotgun got used alot!

The first field use of the Smith .45's was in November of 1986. SIS confronted several armed kidnap suspects-one went the hard way, the others were captured and the victim was recovered. After this incident everyone had night sights installed on their guns.

SIS continued to carry the various models of S&W .45's-645,4506,4566 and 4516's until about 2003 when they switched to Glock .45's.
The various smith .45's with one exception worked very well. Members of the unit were required to fire 100-200 rds per month in training. The only model we had regular problems with was the 4516. S&W replaced the original 4516's we had [approx. 10 guns] with new ones. We had fewer problems with the second batch, but they still didn't function as well as the other models.
We had only two shootings with the 4516's, that I recall. In one incident the gun worked fine and the other the gun malfunctioned. We had several shootings with the 4" and 5" guns with no problems.

The S&W stainless .45's served us well for many years.

Stay safe, John Helms

Agree 100%! I've had both the 4506 and my current 645, both are boringly reliable and accurate enough their intended purpose! Dale

My 645 has been rock solid dependable as well. More than anything else, it was the gun responsible for my infatuation with Smith & Wesson firearms...

What problems did the SIS have with 4516?

I remember the early production 4516's having reliability issues (not sure if it was a gun issue or a magazine issue). They used to be marked to use only a specific magazine in them.

The most common problem with the 4516 is failure to feed,face it you can only make a spring that a few inches long so powerfull ,double spring whatever,the slide functions so fast that the mag spring cant keep up , then add that the gun is lighter ,shorter grip etc, the alloy frame guns are worse,1911,4516,whatever make.If you are standing,2 hand hold, concentrating on your grip you can make them function pretty well,then change to bailing out of a car, combat situation ,slightly loose grip ,tired mag spring ,etc and you have a problem, .45 s were meant to be a med to large size pistol not micro or mini. John, hope you are enjoying retirement,take care, Bob

CALREB is right, feeding problems. Live rounds would get caught in various positions in the chamber/breech face area. Somethimes it would be ball ammo other times it would be hollow points.

CALREB knows what's he's talking about--he's worked on more than one of my guns!

Bob, I'am loving retirement--didn't stick around there too long!

JH

I am not nor never was LE, but I experienced the same with the 4516-1 I used to own. I sent it back to S&W and they fixed it, but I never trusted the gun after that and ended up selling it. I have stuck with the 645 and recently, the SW99 in 45.

Howdy from Texas, LA retirees.

Couple of questions.

Were you all taught to carry the SW 45s (3rd gen) in a certain way?

decocked and blocked (meaning decocker lever down)
decocked and ready to go

waistband carry, holsters, fanny packs?

what was your duty ammo and was it effective through auto windshields?

What was the reason for the switch to Glocks? entire dept switch?

The same goes for 1911s, you start cutting barrel length and shortening springs, reliability can be reduced and in a major police operation....you want the odds in your favor.

thanks in advance

SW CQB 45,

hammer down/decocker up

inside waistband or concealment belt rig w/thumb break strap

Started with ball ammo, then went to Speer 200gr. hp[flying ashtray], then to Federal Hydra Shok 230gr., and then to Federal 230gr.+p Tactical Bonded. We went to the Tact Load because it does a better job of getting into a car[including glass] than anything else we tested in .45.

SIS was the first outfit on LAPD to use Glock .45's. Lighter weight, more rounds, light rail, very reliable, one trigger action - not DA/SA.

SIS membres now have the opportunity to carry the city issue Glock .45 or a 1911 style .45--times change and so does the make up of units.

JH

I love Smtih 45's, I've had or own 3. First was a 1987 mfg 645 that I truly loved, I remember lusting after one since I was in HS. They were always out of reach at the time, traded for one in 07. It was fantastic but a 629 no dash appeared and alas the 645 went away. I've since replaced it with 2 4506's and they are my go to 45 ACP's. Accurate to a fault and they feed anything and everything that I've tried even SWC loads. My 4506-1 is my handgun I carry when my 357 snub isn't quite enough.

What a great thread!

I've hoped someone who has been there done that would tell us about LAPD SIS S&W 45 useage.

S&W 3rd generation pistol detractors often say; "If those pistols are so good, they would have been used by elite teams."

Well, they were - and are. Heres your proof. For those that may not know, the LAPD Special Investigations Section is the elite of the elite. SIS hunts the worst of the worst, catching them in the act. Gunfights often occur.

The Department of the Army and the Department of the Navy have sent their special operators to SIS to be trained in surveillance techniques.

1/74SIS was there a particular S&W 45 favored by SIS? What model did you use? Did anyone stay with the 645? What grips did SIS use? Were any SIS detectives still using S&W 45's when you retired?

Thanks so much for giving us an opportunity to learn about S&W 45 useage by such a distinguished unit! Regards 18DAI.

18DAI,
The initial guns were all Model 645's. That's all they made at the time. As time passed members of the unit started buying 4506's and then some of us purchased the 4516's for back up and off-duty. Several years before going to the Glock the city purchased Model 4566's for everyone in SIS.
None of the guns had light rails. Several folks with big hands liked the black rubber grip panels. I think most of us just used the original grips that came on the gun.
I liked the balance of the 4566's the best. I purchased more than one 645, only have one left---it's been around the block a time or two!!! I also have a 4506 that I carried usually between the front bucket seat and center console-so it would be near my right hand. Hard to present a holstered pistol while seated in an undercover car, wearing a shirt over the holster and often haveing a seat belt on.
We actually had several attempted carjackings of members of the unit over the years. Suspects would see a nice new car with one or more people in it and decide they wanted it at gun point--never worked out the way they wanted!
My original Model 645 is the gun I carried the most, it's also got more rounds down range and more tales to tell.
The whole unit starting carrying the Glock .45 approx. 2003. The Glocks were city issue, everyone got two. No one was carrying S&W .45's in SIS when I retired in 2006.
As I indicated in a prior post they can carry Glock .45's or 1911 style .45's now.

JH

18DAI said:

What a great thread!

I've hoped someone who has been there done that would tell us about LAPD SIS S&W 45 useage.
Thanks so much for giving us an opportunity to learn about S&W 45 useage by such a distinguished unit! Regards 18DAI.

Click to expand...

I concur. I have always wanted to know the history of police issued S&W guns, especially the autoloaders. Great behind-the- scenes and first hand accounts here. Love it!

1/74SIS said:

SW CQB 45,

Started with ball ammo, then went to Speer 200gr. hp[flying ashtray], then to Federal Hydra Shok 230gr., and then to Federal 230gr.+p Tactical Bonded. We went to the Tact Load because it does a better job of getting into a car[including glass] than anything else we tested in .45.

JH

Click to expand...

thanks for the info. I too liked the Flying Ashtrays. They were snappy and accurate.

I was at an ATK ballistic test about 3 yrs ago and Fed 230+P bonded performed better than Gold Dot. it was even cheaper in price, but our Admin chose GD...go figure. ATK who sells both Fed and Speer was pushing the Federal back then.

take care

Interesting info on the LE/field use of the 4516. Up until late last year I carried a 4516-1 as my EDC and some times a light duty gun. When I first got it I had extraction trouble from the chamber on spent rounds. Cleaned up the extractor with a stone and it cleared up. Have use orange, yellow and current black follower mags in it and have had zero troubles since. Granted mine is a 4516-1 and I assume the 4516 the SIS used where no dash guns.

Great thread. Can't wait to see more posted!

This wont be nearly as interesting....the Clarke county GA police department issued Smith 681s to regular uniformed guys in 1987...including me.....the SWAT guys about that time switched to a department issued 4506. Non Novak sights, square trigger guards. Swat were the only guys allowed to carry any sort of auto loader for years. Issue ammo was the Remington 185 gr JHP+P. HOT stuff. Armorer got some heavier recoil springs for the 4506s. Along about 1989, the drug squad bought some 6906s with some seized funds and traded in their 3 inch 13s (buy back was $90 each). The revolver ammo was Winchester 125 gr JHP+P in 38 special. Dont recall the 9mm ammo for the drug guys. Along about 1991, the voters combined the Athens govt with Clarke Co govt....APD had been issued the new 5906 loaded with +P+ Federal BPLE for a few years. That opened the door for us Clarke County revolver guys to go buy our own Smith autos. I ran out and bought a 645, traded it for a 4576 with the decocker, then carried a 4563 the remaining years there. Department issue by 1992 then was the 4006 with 155 gr Silver tips. Issued ammo by then for 45s was 230 gr Hydra-shok. I NEVER....never had any of the Smiths fail in any way shape or fashion in over 20 years at that agency. The ACCPD has been issuing plastic for years now....the SWAT guys were the last to transition from their 4506s to the Glock 40....the new bloods liked the Glocks....... Fast forward to 2011...I now work for a small yet forward leaning agency, the Oconee county GA Sheriffs office and am privileged to carry a Smith Melonite 1911 NFPS and Titanium firing pin. Georgia Arms 185 gr +P. No problems what so ever as of yet.

Very interesting info 1/74SIS. Thanks!

I am currently qualified on the 645, 4516-3 and 4566. Next qualification period is in March. I plan to add a 4513TSW to my ticket.

Like you I favor the 4566 over the others. I have two versions currently, one is silver stainless, Novak night sights with spurless hammer, and decock only from the factory. One slick pistol that conceals easily.

The other is a melonite coated black 4566, Novak night sights and factory decock only as well. These were specail orders for law enforcement agencies. One was a maritime unit in New England and the persistant rumor is the US Marshal Service SOG ordered them as well.

What were the 4566's the city issued your unit set up like? Laser etched markings or standard roll marks? Do you recall the serial prefix? Ours are a mix of "VCJ" "TDM" and "TDP".

Did SIS use a particular holster? Were your mag pouches single or double?

I've heard of various users having issues with the 4516. I understand the 4516 no dash had "slide inertia" issues resulting in feeding problems, but my understanding is that these were cured by a new slide and new mag followers in the 4516-1.

I have a 4516-3 (revision 4 with laser etched markings). I have over 5000 rounds through it and at my last qualification had my first feed issues with it. During a meal break, I contacted member Fastbolt and he advised me as to the possible causes. One particular mag had a weak spring and was the problem.

calreb - Do you recommend using the Wolff extra power spring for the recoil and mag springs on the compact 45's?

My aluminum framed 4513, and my Shorty 45 have never bobbled.....yet. I have not many rounds through either yet.

If forced to pick a favorite S&W 45 I would have to say the 4566. It is not any heavier than a 1911 and does everything well.

1/74SIS did you hear that the LAPD Chief has reinstituted the S&W 45 Decocker School? Starting last August anyone trained on the Glock can privately purchase a 4506, 4566 and 4513 and attend the decocker School to transition from the Glock to the Smith.

My contact in the gang unit told me eight of his guys attended and transitioned. He is keeping his Glock 21. He told me the 4506 and 4566 were about evenly split.

Thanks again for providing us so much great info. you should write a book! It would enhance your retirement!! Regards 18DAI.

the 645s and the 4 digit 45 series pistols are exceptional pistols imo.

st regis that was VERY interesting info! Thanks for sharing it!

I had a 4567. Beautiful pistol that I had to let go to feed the divorce attorney. I plan to get another this year. Regards 18DAI.