Limp wristing?

Does anybody else share my opinion that a proper functioning auto pistol will work no matter who or what is pulling the trigger? The "limp wristing" story is BS to cover up a sub standard gun/ammo problem.

You are on your own.

While it's not a problem on every gun, it does occur.

I'm not riding on that bus. It happens.

My statement/opinion applies to service/self defense type pistols and not fine tuned target types.

If you absorb the energy that's to be harnessed in the functioning of the gun then the gun doesn't have enough energy available to function. This is the case for recoil operated guns. Blow backs not so much and ofcorse not at all in gas operated arms. Schools out.

MY wife had a glock 17 which did that many times to her. IT always functioned perfectly for me, but she never did master it , so we sold it and I was glad to see it go. I could not shoot that thing with any kind of accuracy, it just didn`t feel right and the wife`s limp wrist thing didn`t help.

probably early 2000s, I had the opportunity to attend a Glock Instructor workshop. I was full geared in carrying a SW CQB on duty however the Dept I work for, issued G21s and part of my assignment was to instruct.

I am 6'03" roughly 250 lbs and I have never been able to limp wrist a gun. Even horsing around and trying to limp one on purpose....I could not do it.

Yet I have seen poor shooters (meaning cops who have chosen only to shoot when required and "close their eyes" to basic marksmanship skills to include grip) have unexplained misfires but yet I can see and correct how soft they hold the gun with downward driven muzzles prior to the shot breaking and recoil movement going way beyond because of no firmness in the wrists.

My issued G21 back then was a second Gen G21 (there was never a Gen 1 Glock 21) and over the years I experienced a few misfires which I attributed to low quality ammo the dept purchased and the weaker striker firing pin system compared to hammer fired.

They used to buy us Agulia ball (Mexican Remington) and that stuff was good for clearance drills and it did not lead to weapon confidence.

Then they started buying PMC ball which used CCI primers and we had a bunch of light strike misfires with that stuff. CCI primers are one of the hardest primers in the market.

OK, back to my instructor workshop. I shot approx 800 rounds of I think PMC ball and had three misfires. The instructor told me that I limp wristed the gun on each misfire. I argued that I did not believe it.

Here is my theory as to the unexplained 3 dinks in 800 rounds.

I cannot reproduce a limp wristed misfire. I really believed it to be the looser tolerances of the older Glock in combination with a hard primer ammunition. When one checks the Glock for function and safety....you do it with no mag or ammo inserted. it passes the checks. when you insert an ammo filled mag, you are also pushing the slide away from the receiver which in turn causes your firing pin safety plunger to be depressed less in the cycle of operation.

if there is the slightest drag on a striker fired system, and using a hard primer ammo....there could be the perfect storm for a misfire.

Another issue I have seen over the years is a off timed Glock when hammer fired vs slow controlled hammer press. I have experienced a brand new out of the box go bang every time with hammer trigger press and then one slows down for a precision shot with a controlled press and the gun misfires. this was baffling until we determined the gun was out of time. Glock sent us a plus trigger bar and it was fixed.

But yet a poor shooters has several misfires....and we see poor wrist strength and we tell them to firm up their grip. And the misfires stops.

I am trying to remember back and the only gun I have dealt with on the range where I see misfires are Glocks.

I also teach at the police academy and we have .22 conversions for the glocks. We give these to cadets who are just wasting ammo because they are not clicking on basic marksmanship. I have seen alot of misfires with this combination and of course they argue with me and I tell them with the alloy slide, the plastic frame and the lower pressures of the .22, you have to maintain a firm grip. I have never had a misfire with these .22 converted Glocks.

I deal with alot of poor shooters. Grip, stance and strength issues always come into play. and they have misfires, but once we iron those out...the misfires go away. go figure.

I am not sure I have a correct answer for you.

SW CQB 45 - see if you can borrow a S&W 52 with target loads and see if you can limp wrist it - one of the easier ones to do it with.

Its legit. Ive seen guys at the range have problems with 1911s while their friends shoot the same gun with the same ammo. My sister has problems with Glock 40s&w and the S&W 5906 but no problems with her Kahr

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As a firearms instructor for a LE agency that uses the Sig Sauer P229 (both 9mm and .40 cal.) for duty carry, I can confirm that limp wristing causes ejection failures, primarily stovepipes, in that model. It's not an ammo issue. In each case I've encountered, Ive been able to duplicate the failure on the spot as an illustration to the officer that it's not a mechanical issue. Once they realize it's their technique causing the failure, it's easy to correct the problem.

Over 40 years of shooting pistols and never seen a failure I could attribute to a limp wrist, even when babying semi-autos after recovering from a broken wrist. Can anyone explain the physics of how it could happen. Especially with a pistol as heavy as a 5906.

paul s said:

Does anybody else share my opinion that a proper functioning auto pistol will work no matter who or what is pulling the trigger? The "limp wristing" story is BS to cover up a sub standard gun/ammo problem.

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I agree 100%. It may be a real problem with some guns, but that is because those guns are inferior to the guns which don't have that problem. What you want from a gun is that it work, not explanations of why it doesn't work. If all else fails, try a Model 10 or a Model 19. Or two of them.

BTW, when I was instructing young sailors in handling and using the 1911, I would occasionally demonstrate that its recoil was not unmanageable, by firing the pistol while holding it only with the thumb and trigger finger. No problems. Of course, no one had installed non-standard springs in those things.

I'm not aware of any bottomfeeders that I own that are susceptible to malfunction because of limp-wristing, but if I discover one, I will either fix it or sell it to someone who knows that he will never need that gun to work even if he doesn't have a manly grip available at the moment.

paul s said:

Does anybody else share my opinion that a proper functioning auto pistol will work no matter who or what is pulling the trigger? The "limp wristing" story is BS to cover up a sub standard gun/ammo problem.

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Well, I have a number of armorer manuals out at the bench, from a few of the major gun makers who do a lot of LE/Gov business, and I can offer that "grip problems" are listed as probable causes of some different feeding & functioning problems in virtually of them (I can think of at the moment) ... and that includes pistols made with metal frames by some companies.

I prefer to call it a "grip stability" issue, myself, instead of "limp wristing". It can involve grip firmness, technique and/or an unlocked/broken wrist. It can also vary from one individual to the next.

I've watched it occur more often than I'd care to see over the 20-plus years that I've worked as a firearms instructor (and much of that as an armorer).

Sure, it can be more commonly observed when a lot of folks are shooting some of the plastic-framed guns, but I've certainly seen it happen among enough shooters who were using good quality metal-framed guns. (Even good quality & properly maintained 1911's ).

Some folks can seemingly experience it regardless of how hard they try not to have it happen, and then some folks can't seem to make it happen, no matter how hard they try to do it.

I've seen it repeatedly occur with a plastic .45 for one shooter (T&E gun), but nobody else had any problems using the same gun and the same ammo, before and afterward, that day and then spread out over many weeks. That particular shooter had no such problems shooting an issued 9mm, or any of the other T&E guns chambered in .40 & .45, both plastic & metal framed guns.

It can be addressed as a grip problem, although then some ammo may come along that's produced on the lower end of the normal power range (or it's under-powered), and then we're back to it being an ammo problem.

Day in & day out? More often it's a shooter grip technique & stability issue.

Limp wristing can and does happen a lot of times. Limp wristing is very common in detecting suicide as the cause of death. Many times when a person shoots themselves (normally in the head ) that their grip instantly loosens on the Semis they are using, the gun short shucks and goes into a stove pipe jam.

The equivalent of limp wristing can also happen in long guns if the gun is not tight to the shoulder or if shooting from the hip if you do not have good strong hands on the gun. I have seen it a few times at my range, dad gives little Jonny a gun to shoot and if it is mounted wrong or if the kid does not have enough strength or body weight the gun and the shooter BOTH move and the gun misfires. Again mostly going into a stove pipe jam.

lol- I haven't heard that term in decades. In the 80's I worked in R&D at Smith and the director then was Dick Baker. Dick was funny. He could make a rock malfunction. He'd shoot a gun that many of us have shot thousands of rounds through and he'd shoot about two or three rounds and it would malfunction. He was the limp wrist king of R&D.

Can anyone explain the physics of how it could happen.

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Certainly.
Picture the gun sitting in a frictionless slot and the trigger fired by a remote flexible cable. Then the only resistance to rearward movement of the frame is the inertia (mass) of the frame.
When this gun fires, it tries to compress the recoil spring and store energy, but the frame moves backward too easily, the gun "short strokes" and malfunctions.
It is exactly the same effect as putting a 22# recoil spring in a 9mm 1911, which properly should have a 12# spring.

Attach a stiff arm to the frame of the gun, and the frame moves little while the slide fully compresses the spring, providing the energy to load the next shot.

So why don't we "macho manly he-man learned at 10 years old" guys have this problem. Simple. No matter how much we loosen our fingers, there is that rock-solid thumb attached to a locked arm right behind the grip, and that frame is NOT going back.

Those who have never seen the problem and "therefore it does not exist" (ever seen an electron?) obviously do not instruct beginning shooters. I have seen some squeeze until their fingers changed color, but the gun flipped wildly because "there was no arm behind it."
Like the problem of breaking down, just telling the shooter what they are doing wrong does not fix it, and there are definite techniques to help them "get it."

One technique I use is to have them hold the (EMPTY!!) gun in firing position while I operate the slide by hand, which in some cases nearly causes the gun to hit them in the face before I stop pushing. After this, they start to get the idea they have to HOLD the gun away from them with their ARM!

A high number of "malfunctions" come down to shooter error (limp wristing is a cop out, as it tends to group all shooter error mistakes into one). With that said, I have been known to "lay hands" on a pistol and make it fire perfectly. Unlike some others, I am able to make almost any semi auto jam, but I have to work at it with most of them.

I have seen exactly zero "gun malfunctions" that would fire perfectly fine for another individual.

Ergonomics has a place in firearms technology, and limp wristing is an easy way to explain when those ergo requirements are not being met, either by poor form, or poor gun fit. It happens, even when we don't want to admit it.

I think that it should be very difficult for a properly designed and manufactured semi-auto to malfunction due to limp wristing. A long time ago, I was practicing my bullseye pistol shooting at the local range. The sheriff's department came in with a Glock rep. to test the "new" (this was a long time ago) Glock 21. Since they interrupted my practice session, I was asked to join the group. I fired the pistol and it malfunctioned. I cleared it and it malfunctioned again. The Glock rep. said that I must be limp wristing the pistol. I was regularly shooting an accurized 1911 one handed with target loads and another accurized 1911 with ball loads, as I was trying to get my Distinguished Pistol Shot badge. I call BS on most of the "limp wristing" accusations. I have a buddy who claims to be able to make most semi-autos to jam. He used to attempt this when he was involved with weapon selection for a major agency. He too believes that properly designed and built pistols will function reliably regardless of shooter technique. This of course discounts things like keeping the slide from traveling, etc.