3rd Gen Magazine Release Swap?

Recently, while on an out-of-state trip, I came across a used Model 4013TSW pre-rail which had the magazine release reversed for left-handed operation. It was in generally good shape otherwise, a little pricy, 3 magazines (two silver, one black) and no box. The dealer is willing to ship into MA so it is a 3rd Gen I need to take fairly seriously.

Question 1: Can that left-handed (i.e., right-side) magazine release be reversed back to normal right-handed operation? And if so, would I need to obtain some (possibly hard or impossible to find) parts?

Question 2: I didn't examine the magazines themselves very carefully (sorry, I was in a rush and not thinking). Would they have been S&W-manufactured as ambi? Or would they have had to been cut for ambi use by the previous owner?

I've searched and reviewed forum posts on the topic that I could find, but I couldn't find a clear answer.

With shipping and transfer fees, this gun is already no great bargain. Add some parts or gunsmithing fees, if necessary, and it's a bust. But if I can reverse the magazine release myself... and if the magazines weren't/aren't ruined... the gun has potential.

What says the forum?

It does require a different mag release, it would be much easier to find the standard release than one of those. You might find someone willing to swap the parts with you. The mags do need a second cut which can be made to a regular mag.

handgunner356 said:

It does require a different mag release, it would be much easier to find the standard release than one of those.

Click to expand...

Okay, thanks. I was afraid of that.

handgunner356 said:

You might find someone willing to swap the parts with you. The mags do need a second cut which can be made to a regular mag.

Click to expand...

So most likely those magazines were modified by (or for) the owner. Dang.

BTW, I found a photo in the forum of what the 4013TSW looks like with the left-handed (right side) magazine release. It was in this post: http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-semi-auto-pistols/153715-m-p-40c-4013-tsw.html#post135614062

Don't forget too... not only parts are involved. Unless it's already there, you'll also need to get the left side of the frame drilled for the little detent spring and plunger that lives under the release button to keep it from unscrewing.

Gunhacker said:

Don't forget too... not only parts are involved. Unless it's already there, you'll also need to get the left side of the frame drilled for the little detent spring and plunger that lives under the release button to keep it from unscrewing.

Click to expand...

I guess I've been assuming that this was an owner conversion (vs. a factory special order) ... so I've been assuming that the left side is at least drilled for putting in a left-side magazine release.

I did find it a bit strange that the original owner who traded the gun did not include the parts to reconfigure the gun back to right handed (left-side magazine release) operation... so maybe it is factory original that way?

This is one of those kinds of threads that gets me to thinking, so I had to pull one of my 3rd gens out of the safe to take a close look at it and surprise...

It sure appears that the frames are milled to be ambidextrous for the mag release, and when I looked at the mag catch side, I just noticed for the first time that the "lug" I was mentioning has a little "R" on it... to me that implies that there are ones with little "L's" on them running around out there?

Also the factory grip in the posted picture... that sure looks like it was made to account for the release button being on the opposite side too.

S&W was not shy about adding additional cuts to make the same magazine usable for different applications... I have extra magazines for my 945-1 I bought from S&W, they are nothing more than 4506 magazine with a second notch cut to work with the catch position in the 945 frame.

Had I known that... I could have saved some $$$$'s buy buying readily available 4506 magazines and done that myself in few minutes with a little work with a square needle file.

Are you guys sure? I believe the TSW's are made to be reversible, as indicated in the advertisement shown below. Notice on the second page, where it states, "a reversible magazine catch on all double stack pistols...."

Gunhacker said:

This is one of those kinds of threads that gets me to thinking, so I had to pull one of my 3rd gens out of the safe to take a close look at it and surprise...

It sure appears that the frames are milled to be ambidextrous for the mag release, and when I looked at the mag catch side, I just noticed for the first time that the "lug" I was mentioning has a little "R" on it... to me that implies that there are ones with little "L's" on them running around out there?

Also the factory grip in the posted picture... that sure looks like it was made to account for the release button being on the opposite side too.

S&W was not shy about adding additional cuts to make the same magazine usable for different applications... I have extra magazines for my 945-1 I bought from S&W, they are nothing more than 4506 magazine with a second notch cut to work with the catch position in the 945 frame.

Had I known that... I could have saved some $$$$'s buy buying readily available 4506 magazines and done that myself in few minutes with a little work with a square needle file.

Click to expand...

The mystery deepens. But I don't think the grip design has anything specific to do with the gun being (or not being) ambi. In my research so far, I've read that early 3rd Gens were not magazine release ambi... but the basic wrap-around grip design hasn't changed at all.

Honestly, I'm not sure if that statement I read is right or wrong. It's just never come up as an issue... until now.

427mach1 said:

Are you guys sure? I believe the TSW's are made to be reversible, as indicated in the advertisement shown below. Notice on the second page, where it states, "a reversible magazine catch on all double stack pistols...."

Click to expand...

Great information! Thank you!

But now the big question: Does that apply to the pre-rail Model 4013TSW.

TTSH said:

Great information! Thank you!

But now the big question: Does that apply to the pre-rail Model 4013TSW.

Click to expand...

I have a pre-rail 4013TSW, too. The machining on both sides of the grip where the release button is appears to be identical other than being flipped upside down. Looking inside the mag well, you can see both sides have a slot machined for the magazine catch . I'm going to say it looks like it can be swapped.

427mach1 said:

I have a pre-rail 4013TSW, too. The machining on both sides of the grip where the release button is appears to be identical other than being flipped upside down. Looking inside the mag well, you can see both sides have a slot machined for the magazine catch . I'm going to say it looks like it can be swapped.

Click to expand...

That's great news! Thank you again!

Looks like I need to take this gun very seriously!

Once they started machining the double stack 9/.40 models for it (as noted, standard feature advertised for the TSW's), the same mag catch body could be "flipped" to the other side, using the same parts.

In the double stack guns, the hole for the plunger & plunger spring (used to adjust the mag catch nut/button height) is located on the opposite side of the mag catch body in the frame, which is what happens when the same mag catch is "flipped" to the other side of the frame.

It's the full-size single stack .45's where things got interesting. Something about the frame size/dimension required that they make a special LH oriented magazine catch body. The last shipment of 4566TSW's we received each came with the gun assembled with the standard RH mag catch (for a right-handed user), and a separate LH mag catch (the letters 'LH' are cast in the mag catch body, as I recall), in a small plastic envelope, inside the box. The LH part had to be used to change the .45 over to LH mag catch orientation.

It changed a bit more when it came to the compact double stick & .45 frames, too. The compact 4013TSW frames were machined (starting at some point) to let the user/owner change the existing mag catch over to the other (right) side, using the same plunger/spring/nut. However, the compact 4513's weren't machined to allow the LH part (since there wasn't a machined spot for the plunger & plunger spring to be used to adjust the height of the nut. I can't remember why they said it had ended up that way, though.

This image shows an early 4513TSW (top) and a new production 4513TSW (bottom) that was issued to me a few years ago. Note the lack in both older & current frames of the machined hole for the plunger that's necessary to set the height of the mag catch nut.


So, armorers are told that if the frame of the double stack gun is late enough production to have a "reversed" plunger & plunger spring, and the mag catch is the current production (came with the gun, or is a suitably current repair assembly), then the mag catch can be "flipped" to the other side. The mag catch nut does have to be adjusted for the proper height, via the nut & plunger, to set the right mag catch to work normally.

Also, as mentioned, the magazine body obviously has to have the mag catch cuts on both sides, of course.

TTSH said:

Great information! Thank you!

But now the big question: Does that apply to the pre-rail Model 4013TSW.

Click to expand...

Is there a spot on the right side of the frame for the mag catch plunger & plunger spring to fit? See my other post.

Fastbolt said:

Is there a spot on the right side of the frame for the mag catch plunger & plunger spring to fit? See my other post.

Click to expand...

It's something I'll have to drive back and check on Tuesday when the shop reopens. I just don't remember... and I'm not sure the staff, if I phoned, would even know what I was talking about.

TTSH said:

The mystery deepens. But I don't think the grip design has anything specific to do with the gun being (or not being) ambi. In my research so far, I've read that early 3rd Gens were not magazine release ambi... but the basic wrap-around grip design hasn't changed at all.

Honestly, I'm not sure if that statement I read is right or wrong. It's just never come up as an issue... until now.

Click to expand...

You know... this is why I sometimes loath S&W, sometimes (maybe more so, often) there just isn't a straight forward answer.

That TSW ad says "Smith & Wesson - Depend On It" should read "Smith & Wesson - It Depends"

Depending on which 3rd gen I look at from my safe, the answer changes.

My 4506-1 which has a 1998 date on the fired cartridge envelope that came with it, and my 1006 which by the S/N prefix was a 1990 gun.

The earlier 1006 (lower one in the pic) has the ambi frame cut outs, the later 4506-1 does not.

Also looking at my 1066 and 1076, they have the cuts, my later date 4516-1 and 4566 do not.

Fastbolt said:

Once they started machining the double stack 9/.40 models (as noted, standard feature advertised for the TSW's), the same mag catch body could be "flipped" to the other side, using the same parts.

In the double stack guns, the hole for the plunger & plunger spring (used to adjust the mag catch nut/button height) is located on the opposite side of the mag catch body in the frame, which is what happens when the same mag catch is "flipped" to the other side of the frame.

It's the full-size single stack .45's where things got interesting. Something about the frame size/dimension required that they make a special LH oriented magazine catch body. The last shipment of 4566TSW's we received each came with the gun assembled with the standard RH mag catch (for a right-handed user), and a separate LH mag catch (the letters 'LH' are cast in the mag catch body, as I recall), in a small plastic envelope, inside the box. The LH part had to be used to change the .45 over to LH mag catch orientation.

It changed a bit more when it came to the compact double stick & .45 frames, too. The compact 4013TSW frames were machined (starting at some point) to let the user/owner change the existing mag catch over to the other (right) side, using the same plunger/spring/nut. However, the compact 4513's weren't machined to allow the LH part (since there wasn't a machined spot for the plunger & plunger spring to be used to adjust the height of the nut. I can't remember why they said it had ended up that way, though.

This image shows an early 4513TSW (top) and a new production 4513TSW (bottom) that was issued to me a few years ago. Note the lack in both older & current frames of the machined hole for the plunger that's necessary to set the height of the mag catch nut.

So, armorers are told that if the frame of the double stack gun is late enough production to have a "reversed" plunger & plunger spring, and the mag catch is the current production (came with the gun, or is a suitably current repair assembly), then the mag catch can be "flipped" to the other side. The mag catch nut does have to be adjusted for the proper height, via the nut & plunger, to set the right mag catch to work normally.

Click to expand...

As usual, another great, detailed Fastbolt post. Thank you so much. What would we do here without you?

It's starting to sound like I should jump on this gun ASAP. Wish the price were a little lower but I guess the price is competitive... just a lot higher than what I'm seeing in older posts and completed auctions. Actually it's the mandatory shipping charge and the transfer fee that put it over the top. But such is life.

Fastbolt said:

Also, as mentioned, the magazine body obviously has to have the mag catch cuts on both sides, of course.

Click to expand...

A little "real-time" research tells me that later S&W magazines (made for the railed TSW version) are, in fact, double cut right from the factory. Not sure about the ones that would come with this used pre-rail gun. I'll have to check on that too.

Gunhacker said:

You know... this is why I sometimes loath S&W, sometimes (maybe more so, often) there just isn't a straight forward answer.

That TSW ad says "Smith & Wesson - Depend On It" should read "Smith & Wesson - It Depends"

Depending on which 3rd gen I look at from my safe, the answer changes.

My 4506-1 which has a 1998 date on the fired cartridge envelope that came with it, and my 1006 which by the S/N prefix was a 1990 gun.

The earlier 1006 (lower one in the pic) has the ambi frame cut outs, the later 4506-1 does not.

Also looking at my 1066 and 1076, they have the cuts, my later date 4516-1 and 4566 do not.

Click to expand...

Interesting comparison photos... thank you for posting them!

I think I'm getting comfortable with the idea of buying this gun (despite the high cost) thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. Let's face it - I need a pre-rail TSW in the collection badly! If it is still there on Tuesday and no other issues come up, it is mine!

Good hunting!!

Sounds like that as with me in CA... you face the same kind of pricing dilemma with all of the bull bleep that gets added on top of the gun price.

All 8 of my mags (factory S&W) are double-cut for the mag catch. You DO need a 4013TSW, don't pass it up! Mind if I ask what the asking price is? Is the dealer willing to negotiate?

I looked at all of my 3rd Gen 9mm and none of them appear to be machined for a magazine catch swap over.

I don't know if that carries over to the 40 caliber guns, but just wanted to mention it.

TTSH said:

Great information! Thank you!

But now the big question: Does that apply to the pre-rail Model 4013TSW.

Click to expand...