I've been wondering what the advantage of a DAO semi has over the DA/SA. I get that DAO semi's have the identical trigger feel each and every time. I also understand that each shot must be intentional. But for this degree of safety, the trade-off in accuracy is the result. I'm not considering shooting targets where there is no adrenaline flowing and rapidity of shots is irrelevant. I suppose some Law Enforcement Agencies demand the greater level of safety for the public, but for the life of me I fail to see DAO as an EDC. Opinions????

DAO is a relic of police instructors and administrators who wanted the closest thing they could get to a revolver, which is what they learned on.

As for CCW, DAO pistols typically do not have a manual safety, eliminating the possibility of accidentally leaving the safety on during the first shot. They usually also don't have the spur on the hammer, so there is less to catch onto clothing when drawing. On 3rd Gen Smiths, the lack of a manual safety permits the gun to be a bit thinner in the back of the slide.

DA/SA-draw,dis-engage safety,pull trigger
DAO-draw,pull trigger.

My 5946 is my 15shot revolver,my 6946 is my 12shot revolver.

Same trigger pull is a large bonus

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DA/SA-draw, pull trigger
DAO-draw, pull trigger

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Exactly Arik!

For me, I got rid of all of my DA/SA pistols back in the early 1990's, as the transition from DA to SA required me to change my hold (I may be the only person that experienced this, but for me, it was real).

Once I bought my 3953 and 5946 (both in 1991 I believe), I found them to be perfect for my needs, and the sell off of all of my DA/SA pistols began.

I still have a few but their not my primary or even secondary guns. I use them to keep profic with DA/SA but nothing more

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I don't find that I lose any accuracy with DAO's. In fact I can group the DAO's as well as the TDA's but I also learned on revolvers. I am comfortable with either as a carry gun but the DAO's are slimmer.

The key is practice. No matter what I bring to the range for fun over half of my rounds are with a 3rd gen single stack DAO or TDA. The rest may be 1911's, PPK's or revolvers, ect. I always finish with a carry gun to keep that familiarity.

Whatever you choose is fine...shoot it regularly and you will be good to go.

I can not agree at all, that a DAO is a trade off of safety for
accuracy. Some of my most accurate pistols are DAO. Even a
"novice" shooting them , with a little time, can shoot them very
accurately. Most people, (used to DA/SA's,) are very surprised that the DAO's can be so easy and natural to shoot well.
Others with little or no shooting experience, just accept them and end up shooting them well and liking them.

I prefer DA/SA now as well, after carrying every other action type first. I don't believe it or any other type is a best choice in general, just what I'm comfortable using for carry with my skill level.

Much prefer DAO. Do not want to mess with an external safety, decocker, two trigger pulls, etc. I like to keep my guns as simple as possible, I figure if I ever need to use one I will have enough on my mind already.

For me, it depends on the gun. I have better success w/ my CZ DA/SA guns than I do with my SIGs. Not terribly worse, but noticeable to me.

I too shoot revolvers and compete w/ them in IDPA, so DA or DAO is no big deal for me.

I do have a SiG 250 that has an amazing DAO trigger, but I do better w/ the CZs.

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Guns + Dogs= Bliss

If you have trigger control down, a good DAO doesn't shoot any worse than a single-action. In fact, it can be faster and more accurate. That said--they reward good technique, but can be quite unforgiving of bad habits. If you try to stage DAO, or do anything other than a linear increase in pressure, you'll have a rough time.

There's a tendency to equate "lighter" and "shorter" with "better"--and it's simply not true.

When I started with semis I got everything in DAO, for simplicity and safety, because everybody in my family isn't as keen as learning the ins and outs as I am.

Also, the two purposes to have a semi to me were SD and training at the range. I'm a revolver guy. But defense situations from not wo well trained people need a DAO, hence guns like the Shield and my Kel Tec. DAO is the way to for SD in untrained users.

As I shot, I found out that SA and SA/DA guns are GREAT to shoot and easier to shoot well. I have a hammer semi of an unmentionable brand but the fact that I can empty the mag all in SA, or have the first shot DA and the rest SA, is pretty fantastic to me. I'd like to have more of these in my collection.

PS: I think the Shield has a really good DAO trigger that feels something like bad SA trigger.

My third gen has a long, but smooth DAO trigger.

The Kel tec trigger is long and hard....period.

And BTW. They are making inexpensive but good 1911s so you can get a good shooter for less.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

Out of 150 + revolvers I've had over the years, maybe a half dozen were DA only. Of those, almost all were traded off and or converted to SA/DA . I still have one competition tuned 686SSR that is DAO (but not likely for long.) Not saying there is anything wrong with them but this is a hobby ( for me) about "likes and wants". I just never could warm up to the limitation the impose myself.

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Dave

After my sheriff's office transitioned from revolvers to the model 645, and later the model 4506, we received extensive training on the new pistol. It, and all but two of my pistols, are DA/SA and I prefer them that way. I never use the safety as these are as safe as revolvers. I would not want or own a DAO pistol. All of my revolvers are DAO, unless cocked and shot single action. I am used to those, but wouldn't want that in a pistol. I also like an external hammer on all of my handguns.

A DAO pistol can be safely holstered after firing. A DA/SA needs to be decocked first. If you forget , you could have an accidental discharge when holstering. I prefer DAO for self defense needs..

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S&W BG380, S&W 915 9mm

There is a reason why the revolver is rarely, if ever, used in NRA Bullseye matches. The DAO of the revolver just can't compete with the accuracy of a semi-auto in SA mode at 5 shots/10 seconds (rapid fire). And you'll never see a DAO semi in these competitions.

I certainly used to use a revolver, a 6" M19, in bullseye competition. Fired SA only of course. 10 seconds for 5 shots, really for 4 shots, is child's play.

Theres good DA triggers and some that are not so good . I have passed on a few DAO s&w pistols both well used and like new do to the one thing they have on common , a heavy trigger pull . I did carry a snub nose with a well tuned 7lb DA trigger for years then kahrs for 12 years . Stock triggers run around 7lb and smooth but tend to lighten up a little bit more after a few hundred rounds then change the striker spring for a wolff RP spring for a about a 5lb+ pull that makes all other DAO triggers second class at best .

One of our daughters carries a Sig P250sc that's also a DAO hammer fired pistol with a stock 6.5lb trigger .

Those are the reasons I will continue to avoid buying a S&W DAO pistols do to those heavy triggers as I have yet to find one with even a reasonably lite trigger pull.

I never was a da/sa pistol fan for carry and its taken me 40 years to buy and keep it around after finding a s&w 669 at my local general store for sale . I first assumed had been tuned up but is stock with no gunsmith marks on it and S&W never had it come back for anything.

Even with all new springs in it the DA pull is a smooth 8lb7oz and SA pull is 3lb 4oz and makes for an easy pistol to shoot well and gets some carry time .

Even as nice as it is I still prefer a lite same pull trigger every time trigger and have a p320c with a low 4lb trigger pull that is my primary EDC .

Never owned a DAO. Have owned a goodly number of DA/SA and SA. DA gives good results, but never on equal level w/ SA. Proof? Look at any match. Does anyone ever willingly shoot DAO when they can shoot SA? Look at high level competitions. No one shoots DA ... unless it is a revolver match. Everyone shoots the most crisp SA they can get. In matches ... winning always beats loosing. The winners shoot SA. Otherwise, why would so many police type matches permit 1911's ... when the overwhelming vast majority of departments do not permit 1911 and when the overwhelming vast majority of departments in fact use Glocks and similar type S&W's. Sincerely. bruce.

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<><

It is to me as well; prefer the simpler manual of arms for reholstering as well

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K & N S&W revolvers

I guess you're the only relic left. Please explain the massive switch to SA semi auto. And I will nor accept the lemming excuse "because everybody else was....". The reason is simply that SA does not involve any hand movement other than the gentle squeeze on the trigger when the dot site is centered on the target.

The "massive switch" had nothing to do with the trigger pull and everything to do with high capacity and the speed and ease of reloading. The main users of handguns in this country (at that time) were police officers - who felt out gunned by criminals using high cap semi autos while they were armed with six shot revolvers.

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Tony

There is an entire segment of Bullseye dedicated to revolver use. It's called Distinguished Revolver.

The subject here was regarding NRA Bullseye competition. Not LEO's switching to semi-autos for being "out gunned, faster reloading". And why would the NRA create a separate division for revolvers in Bullseye competition? Might have something to do with keeping the competition on a level playing field.......

My concern about the SA/DA weapons was the manipulation required to return the weapon to safe. In the heat of a self defense encounter you could forget to return the weapon to safe and have a ND. That was one of the reasons my former agency transitioned to the Glock.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Talking about, and comparing, DAO in revolvers vs. pistols (semi's) is not what the OP is asking about.

Old Cop Like cops don't fire glocks by accident both in the field and in the class room . Pay attention to ND with law enforcement only and see that glocks account for most ND over the last 25 years . The average single action pull weight of a DA/SA pistol and total length of pull is little different from many striker fired pistols outside those few screwed up states with required heavy pull weights yet LEO's still manage to have ND with glocks and 10lb triggers !

Departments moved away from most da sa pistols do to the cost savings for the department and weight and basic trigger design to help newbee non gun trainies learn to shoot well enough quicker . More of a case of keep it simple for the newbees .. Whats a gluck cost to a department to buy?? $290 dollar range for larger departments .

Sig p320c is $285 to LE I think . M&P?? any ideas !

Not really, as long as there is a FP block, and the gun cannot fire unless the trigger is pulled there is no difference, IMO. A modern CZ 75, or clone can be carried condition 1, 2(DA/SA), or condition 0. The gun will not fire unless the trigger is pulled. My wife carries her witness condition 1.

Almost all modern weapons are safe unless the trigger is pulled. A 80 series or later 1911 is just as safe as a Glock with the safety off. Both will not fire unless the trigger is pulled. Glocks and similar pistols saw an increase in ND's mostly due to the cutting of safety training for officers because the Glock is easier to shoot, supposedly.

From that first line it sounds like you are carrying your DA/SA cocked and ready to fire WITHOUT a safety on?

Not at all.

DA/SA style guns are carried with the safe off

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That's not what I read it to say. I think what he is saying is that a DA/SA pistol is brought into action simply by pulling the DA trigger. After the first shot, it reverts to SA only.
What the poster was saying was that there is no difference in the two until after the first shot is fired.

Your Honor and members of the Jury: it's a "decocker not a "safety"..........See on this higher priced PC 5906 DPA Model it's "decocker" won't stay in the down position.... but flips itself back up automatically...... giving you a long heavy trigger pull on the first shot just like a revolver!!!!!!!

Long and heavy not like the Glock, the police carry, with it's short length of pull and light weight trigger! So it's much safer than the guns carried by the Pittsburgh Police!!!!

I'm confused (happens a lot these days).

When I see DA/SA I think 1911 style gun. Single action first shot (cock the hammer & pull the trigger) and "double action" for subsequent shots (just pull the trigger since the recoil action from the first shot cocks the hammer for you).

What model of pistol has a double action trigger on the first shot but then has to have the hammer manually cocked before firing subsequent rounds?

Bean counters would say that, statistically, the biggest threats average citizens face with their EDCs are careless or unintentional shots and criminal and civil liability.

Many firearms training scenarios arise from military or law enforcement experiences of trainers and instructors. While such training is valuable, it is more likely that the average citizen's life will hang in the balance for inadequate knowledge of local self defense laws than their split times being a hundredth of a second to slow to fight off a horde of attacking zombies.

What guns do average citizens carry? Some people carry their favorite gamer gun - on the very sound reasoning that the gun they are most familiar with will be both the safest and most effective. Other people carry their only gun - on the very sound reasoning that any gun provides better armed self defense than no gun. Finally some people carry guns -such as DAOs- that are specialized and specific to EDC - they may not be the absolute fastest shooters, or the most accurate at extreme ranges, but they address the safety risks that the average citizen will most commonly encounter.

A 1911 is a single action pistol. Racking the slide chambers a round and cocks the hammer; the single action performed by the trigger is to release the hammer.

A S&W 5906 is a DA/SA pistol. If a round is in the chamber and the hammer is down, a long, heavy trigger pull does the two actions of cocking the hammer and releasing the hammer. Subsequent shots can be single action because the cycling of the slide cocks the hammer after each shot.

A S&W 5946 is a double action only pistol. A long, heavy trigger pull does the two actions of cocking the hammer and releasing the hammer. On subsequent shots, the hammer returns to its at-rest or uncocked position after each round is fired and the trigger again has to cock and release the hammer.

DA/SA means the first shot is in double action with the hammer forward. It's DOUBLE because the trigger does two things. First it pulls the hammer back and second it releases the hammer. Think of most of your hammer guns like Beretta, CZ, S&W 3rd gens, Sig.

SA is simply single action. Meaning the trigger's only job is to release the hammer. That would be on any 1911 or on a Double action gun that has the hammer already pulled back.

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Gotcha, I was thinking of the term DA/SA in the wrong way - in terms of what the shooter has to do rather than what the trigger itself does. Silly of me I guess...

My 1911 is straight SA and has a safety, my M59 is DA/SA and has a decocker. Makes much more sense now.

Shortly after transitioning to the Glock we had a ND in our break room just outside our locker room. Someone murdered a vending machine, nasty scene w/broken glass and M&Ms everywhere. I'm not usually quesy but this got to me.

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Old Cop
LEO (Ret.)

Actually, Distinguished Revolver shooters clean timed and rapid-fire targets just as well as traditional shooters. DR as a class has a whole host of additional equipment requirements--factory sights, and the only external modifications allowed are factory-offered parts (trigger and hammer and such).

It's also quite a bit trickier to achieve bullseye-level accuracy with a revolver than a 1911. One's got one chamber--the other has six. One has a chamber that's part of the barrel, the other uses a forcing cone.

The trigger style is pretty much the last reason why revolvers aren't used in Bullseye.

I'd also point out that one of the most popular triggers for the 1911 in Bullseye is what's called the "roll trigger". The crisp single-action break is replaced with a long, smooth pull. I hear tell there's this guy out west makes a mint selling kits for 'em

But hey, if you can't conceive of how to shoot a double-action trigger accurately, well...man's got to know his limitations.

And the fact that the Glock has been the most popular, by far, pistol in LEO circulation for the last 25 years is merely coincidental.

It's like concluding that Ferraris are way safer than Chevy Suburbans, because there are so few Ferrari accidents.

Don't most people carry their TDA S&W semi-auto without the safety on? That is something I really like about the 3rd gen autos: you can safely carry them with or without the safety applied, but you have the option of either.

Most people seem to use the term TDA (traditional double action), than DA/SA. A 1911 action is usually referred to as an SA semi-auto.

DC police saw a marked increase in ND's with the switch over to Glock. That had nothing to do with how many Glocks are out there. The truth is some people are not competent to carry a Glock.

People should ask themselves would they carry a 1911 80 series cocked with the safety off. If the answer is no they have no business with a Glock.

No, actually the Original Poster (you) asked: "I suppose some Law Enforcement Agencies demand the greater level of safety for the public, but for the life of me I fail to see DAO as an EDC. Opinions???? "

EDC? That doesn't sound anything like NRA Bulls Eye.

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Tony

Maybe (I hate to say it) the NYPD has a point with their 12 pound trigger.

Seriously, though it is a training issue. Glocks don't fire unless the trigger is pulled - it doesn't matter if it is your finger, jacket zipper pull tab, drawstring - something has to get into the trigger guard and pull that trigger for a Glock to fire. Anytime you see a Glock shooter jamming a Glock into his/her holster, stand clear!

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Tony

Washingtonpost.com:

Washingtonpost.com:

He's just busy moving the goalposts. He started off his argument on a bad assumption (that DAO's are somehow less accurate), tried to back it up by saying there are no precision double-action shooters (anybody remember PPC?) and is scrambling to salvage something.

On the subject of precision (and fast) DA shooters, have any of you all heard of Ed McGivern, Jack Weaver, Bill Jordan, and Jerry Miculek?

20 years ago I transitioned from a 4" model 10/Ruger GP100 duty weapon to the Glock 17 fitted with the NY trigger module.

The rational was that under international treaty international airport staff had to carry a high capacity 9mm pistol. Up until about 1995 it had been a Browning High Power, but when our Diplomatic Protection Staff moved from revolvers to semi-autos the Glock was chosen and ,as the department wanted standardised firearms we all got them. At the time we were "unarmed" and terrorism, apart from the Rainbow Warrior bombing in 1985, unknown here.

As a Range Conducting Officer I had some questions about the Glock choice.

Why were no traditional DA/SA pistols considered for issue? Our military had just gone to the Sig 226. I was told the department wanted a simple point and shoot pistol like a revolver with a consistent trigger pull from shot to shot, no DA/SA transition and no running around with the finger resting "near" a cocked SA trigger.

Why not consider a DAO pistol like a S&W?

Because slightly built female staff were having issues shooting a DA revolver with a "heavy" trigger pull and they needed something lighter.

I think that is the real reason the striker fired "plastic fantastic" have become the most popular police issue pistol in the world.