The PC 45 Recon pistols reportedly came with a matching, serialized knife.

Does anyone know whether that was just the early batch of guns, or all of them? Did the black guns come with the knife or only the stainless guns?

Anyone know the model of the knife and whether s&w still sells that model? Thanks! Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Oh no way! Now I have this pistol that I have clearly ruined, and have to find the matching knife to destroy as well.
On a serious note,

I had no idea.

Stay tuned brother. I'm "ruining" one just like you did. Best regards, 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Looking around old auctions and sales I found a pic of one in the case with the knife.
Looks cool. Hard to tell which model the knife is.

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810187A0-BB6D-44A9-9C1C-5AF0AEF89BE7.jpg (82.1 KB, 152 views)

Maybe you've already seen this thread, 18, but in case not:

history on the Performance Center Recon 45

Knife discussion starts at post 18.

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Ukraine -- now more than ever

This older post shows the knife.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/138620215-post18.html

It's marked Performance Center and has the same serial number as the gun. It looks like the same knife was issued with some of the RSR .40 Recon's. It doesn't appear to be currently listed on the S&W Knife Store.
FOLDING - KNIVES

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"I also cook."

Yup! Thats the knife!

I am not sure if the knife only came on the later, stainless guns or if there were some sold with the black guns.

The piece I am in the process of "desecrating" is black. I had an interesting conversation last week with a master gunsmith out of Oklahoma. He was here in NC delivering several guns that he made for the shop I work at part-time. Some class III and a couple of custom handguns.

We talked about porting on carry guns. He was of the opinion that it was "....tits on a bull!" We agreed that while the "flash issue" is BS, especially with modern powder in defensive ammo, a lot of trash still gets thrown up through ports.

I told him about your Recon mods. He agreed that it was stupid to have the ports there, on a compact carry 45 and said "Good job!" putting things right. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Thanks for the links vigil617 and s&wchad!!

Post 18. Coincidence? I am off to hunt down a similar knife. Thanks very much for the assist gents! Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

One of the guns with mags and case and knife sold on this forum a few years ago and looking around it appears I offered to be second in line after an “I’ll take it” appeared. I forgot all about it but love the pistol I eventually got. Now looking for the knife....

Mine didn't tho used, (a brother to yours 18) a very sweet shooting .45, I like a lot...
It wasn't a quality knife so weather they came with or not I don't understand why somebody would separate...

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This is the way....

Looking at pics of the knife online and in the links provided by vigil617 and s&wchad, the blade appears to be identical to the Kershaw knife I have carried for over 20 years.

Maybe the PC farmed out the knives production and etched the serial numbers later?

Also, interestingly, to me, one poster in the linked thread said that his Recon 45 didn't come with a knife. But he "...registered his gun with s&w and they sent him the knife..."

Others said the knives came with their guns, purchased new. Might be worth a call to customer service tomorrow.........but anyone with any info there is probably retired.....

Might have to look through Kershaws catalog and see if an identical knife can be found there too. Thanks again fellas! Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

I know my Recon9 has a knife that came with it . As someone said it is serialized the same as the gun . It's nothing special so I don't know why someone would not keep it with the gun . I guess the same reason they don't keep the PC case/box with the gun . Makes you wonder what people are thinking when they do these things . Congratulations John , I hope you are happy with it .

Thanks to you cherrypointmarine!! Were it not for you, I wouldn't have had the opportunity to own this fine pistol! Thank you VERY much!

I should have it in my hands shortly. After the mods are completed. Then I will wring it out at the range and put it in my holster. Retiring my other 45 carry guns. I think my friend CALREB said once that a Performance Center 45 is the ultimate carry piece. I agree with him.

I am very much looking forward to getting my hands on it. Thanks again! I appreciate you! Best regards, 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Wish there were something I could do to help but I came up empty. All the best in your search.

And, should the worst happen, try to take solace in these immortal words...

YouTube

Thank you my friend!

LOL Jeppo! I said something similar last week to a young man carrying an m&p. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Interesting thread. I can understand and appreciate the mods you are going to do. But I can’t figure out why you’re looking for the knife that came with the last ones, (to make it complete,) when you’re changing the completeness, (originality,) of it anyway.

You “know” me by now so you get what I’m saying isn’t any disrespect to you at all.

I’m lucky enough to have one of those 603 made and I got it in spite of the extended ported barrel. I think you have same ones I have so I’m curious about the non-reversible changes you want. Why not get another example?

Of course my Recon is modded but not irreversible so.

Jim

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Congrats on the new acquisition 18DAI! Looking forward to seeing it with the new mods.

I'm not familiar with the knives these originally came with, but I have yet to see a S&W brand knife that I would consider owning, so chances are you're not missing out on much.

Here are the flyers I have on the subject.

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	S&W PC Recon Series Flyer F Sm.jpg (78.6 KB, 66 views)
	S&W PC Recon Series Flyer B.jpg (73.1 KB, 41 views)

Wow, I didn't realize that a .40 Recon even existed. Or did it make the promo sheet but never went fully in to production...?

I agree with those who say they have seen SOME guns with the knife and others without. I mean originally shipped/packaged/sold, not later broken up. New guns were available without the knife as part of the package.

18DAI, neat project, as long as you are saving some of your pennies for the 4-inch, Novak fixed sight 945 that you said is the right one for you! That one will be neither easy to spot nor low in price!

I carry a knife daily and it's a quality item, but I went expressly with a buddies' recommendation because I'm no manner of a knife guy and I wouldn't know real quality in a knife if it stuck me in the rear end.

But your post made me want to say... the big honkin' overweight behemeth of a knife that came with my Model 19-3 Texas Rangers Commemorative was a pretty neat piece! I think it weighed more than the revolver. This was a 1973 offering, before lightweight knives, I'll assume.

Here are the flyers and two photos of mine. One with a recently acquired 357 Sig Briley barrel.

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	S&W 4006 PC 40 Recon Flyer F.jpg (72.1 KB, 39 views)
	S&W 4006 PC 40 Recon Flyer B.jpg (30.3 KB, 36 views)
	S&W PC 40 Recon Billboard.jpg (52.3 KB, 43 views)
	S&W PC 40 Recon & 357Sig Barrel.jpg (90.0 KB, 50 views)

I don't want to get this topic steered into the tall grass but here is that Texas Rangers flyer.

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	tr-ad-1.jpg (84.4 KB, 29 views)
	tr-ad-2.jpg (91.1 KB, 25 views)

Channeling Paul Hogan:

re: the PC knife, "That's not a knife."

re: the Rangers knife, "THAT'S A KNIFE!!!"



John

Haha you do realize that is the video clip that Jeppo linked, right?

The knife is a curiosity item. IF there were one "out there", matching the gun, I would probably buy it. But not to "complete" anything as I am NOT a collector. Just a shooter.

And this gun is everything I prefer in a carry gun. The ultimate compact carry 45, for me. Back around 2013/2014 I had a few telephone conversations with a couple of fellows who founded the Performance Center and ran the place. We spoke about the efficacy of a Performance Center gun as a duty gun. They were both of the opinion that some of the models they had designed and produced were made for just that purpose. In particular the 45 CQB, Shorty series guns ect.

They both told me that sticking these guns in a safe, waiting for them to become collectable or increase in value was a waste. They were made to be used in competition and for serious purpose. I agreed with them.

RedCardinal thanks very much for the Flyers! I wondered if any were still around. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

No...

I neglected to click the link.

I'm not surprised someone else thought of it first.

John

18, I agree that it's your pistol and you can take a hacksaw and dremel to it to your hearts content. (groan...)

You can even put a pimp polish and pearl grips on it if you prefer.

But has anyone taken the time to find out if an unported barrel is available instead of the chop job?

John

I might have an opinion more inline with those guys...

-IF-
--I had the skill to build guns
--I had the skill to build guns like these!
--I were employed as such
--I had the backing of perhaps the world's most legendary gunmaker
--it was 1998 and not 2019
--if all of these craftsmen weren't retired or moved very much on
--if their group existed today in ANY FORM other than our memory

I could go on. I don't get any pleasure in it, however.

18DAI, hope this helps. Joe

S&W 4513 PERFORMANCE CENTER MODEL .45 RECON ALUM PC CASE DOCS & KNIFE RARE - Semi Auto Pistols at GunBroker.com : 842940677

Thanks joedegs! Very kind of you to provide that link. Much appreciated.

JohnHL, yes - back when the Performance Center was still around and staffed by professional gunsmiths with decades of experience - and these Recon series guns were in production - you could call them and order a flush fit unported barrel. They sold them.

Now, you are limited to finding one...........or....contacting a barrel maker like Barsto and seeing if they would make one. Big bucks there. And low return on investment, for me. As I won't ever be selling this gun. Its a shooter.

And with a new barrel in a used gun, with an aluminum frame, there are other hazards to "dropping in" a new barrel. All the surfaces on the barrel that is in it have mated with the frame/slide. It is "broken in" as they say. Introducing a new barrel can upset the apple cart.

Much easier - and BETTER - IMO, to modify the barrel thats in it. More cost effective too. Thankfully we are blessed to have BMCM, to work on our guns and provide us the craftsmanship that resided in the Performance Center, when it was still around.

And look at the brightside JohnHL, by eliminating two examples of a 600 run of guns, squidsix and I are driving up the price on the remaining examples. Regards 18DAI

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7 +1 Rounds of hope & change

Thanks to RedCardinal for posting pics and stats on these S&W knives! After seeing the knife in question that came with these PC Recons, I'd say most likely not much of a knife, but definitely cool to have the matching one with your pistol.

The Texas Rangers knife is nice-looking, and definitely more of a knife than the PC Recon example. I'm not an expert but have been a knife guy most of my life, and I'd say that it's a decent Bowie knife, especially for the period it was made in. 440a is an OK stainless steel for a blade, should be serviceable with a good heat treat, though there are much better options out there today. When I was a kid in the 80's, I would have loved to own that knife for sure though!

And for that, not everyone is so happy.

I had a shot at a 45 Recon years ago and passed on it because the ported barrel just seemed silly.

If I was smart, I would have bought it, waited until recently for the idea to cut it off came along. Ah Shucks.

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USS ZELLARS
DD-777

Interesting, isn't it, that the flyer mentions 500 of the special knives, and the production on the 45 Recon was 603. So, not a knife for every gun, which explains why some folks have them and others don't.

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Ukraine -- now more than ever

OH MAN !!! ..,. Red Cardinal that is a pistol I just really want to have. Everthing in one package.. 357 Sig in a SW 3rd gen PC Shorty package. I did not know this existed. I now have a new grail gun to hunt. Thanks!

18 good luck hunting the knife. I will be looking for your Mods as well.

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John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

Just so the audience is clear...
The PC never offered the .357 Sig. This is a recently manufactured barrel from Briley.

Tis true. One of my two 357 Sig barrels is a Briley and the other is a Bar Sto. I have a 40 Recon, a Shorty 40 Mk 3S and a 3566 Compact. The barrels fit all three. But will not function in the 3566 Compact due to the narrow breechface. I have only shot the 40MK3S with the Bar Sto barrel, and it was fantastic. I would say slightly less recoil than the 40S&W. It did make me smile. If I could find a barrel, I would like to shoot the 357 Sig in the DPA 5906. So contact me if you have a PC 9MM 4 or 5 inch barrel to sell. I will trade you my PC 4.25" ported barrel from my 40 Recon which has just been sitting in the box.

Though the PC never offered the shorty in .357 Sig, someone in the factory did think about.

Shorty 40 barrel in .357 Sig ?

I would have thought that the DPA 5906 (and the 3566 Compact) had 9mm breech faces and the 357 Sig cartridge requires a 40 s&w (wider) breech face.

Seems to me you would need to turn the 357 Sig case rims to 9mm diameter or open up the breech face(s) on those PC pistols.

Am I missing something?

John?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BOBBY137
Up date? And a question, would it be possible to get a 9mm tsw barrel and convert it to .357 sig to fit in the 4006tsw?

Yes.

I've done it.

John



I got the idea from this post in another thread where the OP successfully fired 9mm in a 4006TSW using a 5906TSW barrel. Then I put the Briley 357 Sig barrel from my 40 Recon into the 3566 Compact and it appeared to fit perfectly. The 40 magazine also fit perfectly. I have not shot it. Am I missing something?

Funny thing I've noticed... barrels swap from shorty 9 to shorty .40. However... the mags do not interchange shorty 9 mags won't go into the shorty .40

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This is the way....

I knew that.. but I have been resisting buying a Shorty 40 because I don't have any other .40s. (I gave up on one on the big auction site Sunday)
But getting a 357 Sig barrel for it changes all that.

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John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

Interestingly enough I was pushing out most of my .40s (still trying)until I traded into the shorty .40, it really spiraled out of control after I seen the accuracy it provided... and down the 3rd gen hole I fell, ha! Next came the DPA then the shorty 9 then the recon.... I have no clue what's next

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This is the way....

I just tried mine. The PC 9MM 12 round mag fits my Shorty 40 Mk 3S perfectly and so does the std 6906 mag. The PC Shorty 40 mag also fits my PC 3566 Compact perfectly. The PC models are grooved to allow this.

Hmm my PC 12rd 9mm mag only goes about 1/2in in the shorty .40.... the .40PC mag goes right in the shorty 9

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This is the way....

Some of the .40 mags have a bump on the front of them that interferes with the front strap of the grip frame.
Way back during the ban, we used to buy .40 cal mags and grind off that bump to use them in 9mm pistols. Most S&W 10-round .40 mags will hold 14 rounds of 9mm. The 9-round Shorty 40 mags held 11 rounds of 9mm.

Yes.

What you are missing is the breech face on the slide.

I'll assume you know, but for the sake of explanation, the breech face is the area on the slide that the rear or base of the cartridge sits against when it is loaded in the chamber.

It's the part of the slide through which the extractor protrudes.

On pistols chambered for 9mm sized cartridges (DPA 5906, 3566 Compact), the breech face is too narrow to accommodate the larger diameter of the 40 s&w case which is the same size as the 357 Sig.

The mag may fit in the frame, and the barrel may fit in the slide, but the cartridge base will be too big for the breech face and extractor.

Try it.

Take a fired 40 s&w case and see if it will slide under the extractor of a 9mm slide.

I'll bet you a donut that it won't.

John

Thanks John. A very good explanation. I have been putting the 357 Sig barrels in 40S&W models so the extractor should be no problem. When putting the 357 Sig into a 9MM model, I can see the potential as you described. I guess the ability to put a 9mm barrel in a 40S&W made me think I could go in the reverse. I really wanted that donut! I guess I am limited to a 356TSW barrel to power-up the DPA 5906.

Frankly RC, with the exception of the initial cost of the ammo, I don't think 356TSW gives up anything to 357 Sig.

John

You also have to consider the 4 extra rounds of 356TSW. But first, I have to find a PC 9MM or 356TSW barrel.