Preferred ammo for 908/3913 pistol?

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firescout

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I've owned a purchased-new 908 pistol since 1999. For SD/home defense ammo, I started with the time-honored Federal 115 JHP (9BP) ammo, and still use it. I am aware that there are much more effective loads now, but the 9BP round functions and shoots so well in the small pistol. A few years back, I acquired several boxes of Federal Tactical 124 JHP (LE9T1), which I believe has now been superceeded by the similar HST 124 JHP.

I handload nearly all of my ammo for my handguns and rifles, and only use factory ammo for SD/HD use. For practice shooting, I handload virtually identical rounds to the several factory loads I have for my .38 Spl and 9mm handguns. In the interest of minimizing wear on my 908, I stay away from +P ammo.

I'm interested in what others out there carry in their 908/3913 style pistols?
 
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I like the older brands too, with proven street performance in LE usage.

I use Winchester Ranger - RA9T or the RA9B when it can be found. Back when Winchester was peddaling the ammo to agencies in my jurisdiction, the rep told us the 147 grain was designed to open up in the velocity window of sub 4 inch barrels.

IE in the 3913, CS9 and other small compact or sub compact 9MMs that many of us were carrying off duty or as BUGs. Regards 18DAI
 
I've typically carried whatever was being used in my former agency's inventory at the moment, or optionally approved for personal purchase, which has included quite a variety of JHP loads over the years.

Back when my 3913 (and CS9) were new, that usually meant W-W 147gr "white box", or Rem 147gr Express. Then, we started carrying W-W 127gr +P+, covering a couple versions (generations) of it, from the black Lubalox SXT bullets (RA9SXTP) to the subsequent plain copper RA9TA versions. Then we went to the Rem 124gr +P Golden Sabre (non-bonded) and the W-W 124gr +P T-series. Somewhere in that mix we also had a couple versions of the W-W 147gr RA9T, and lastly, some of the Fed 147gr HST (standard pressure).

As long as it fed and functioned in my 3913 & CS9 (and later my 3913TSW), I didn't really mind much one way or the other which of the JHP's I was running. FWIW, they were all adequately accurate in my guns, in my hands, although some of the course-of-fire qual ranges ran a little on the short-range now and again, meaning only out to 11yds. Then we added in 15-25yd distances again. Just depended. When we ran short courses at times I always tried to take the time to run drills out further, meaning at distances between 20-50yds. When doing those further distance drills I usually just used standard silhouette targets or steel (both smaller pepper poppers or 3/4 size steel silhouettes).

I do, however, tend to replace the recoil springs a little sooner when running +P and +P+ loads in my short 3"-3 1/2" 3rd gen's, than when running standard pressure 147gr JHP's.
 
The Federal 9BP was a good civilian self-defense round and the 9BPLE was considered the best law enforcement only load, but that was in the late 1980's through 2000. Bullet technology and materials have made tremendous advancements since then. With modern bullets like the Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, and Winchester Ranger T, you no longer need to beat up the pistol and your wrists with +P or +P+ loads in order to have reliable and consistent bullet performance.

My choices for carry in my 6946 are either the Federal 147 grain HST or Winchester 147 grain Ranger T, both in standard pressure. With these bullets, +P gets you more recoil, faster expansion, but reduced penetration.
 
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I carried department issue Winchester 115 grain JHP +P+ ammo in my 3913 NL. This ammo was accurate and reliable.

One Saturday afternoon a Friend and I returned to his house in the country. Upon getting out of the car we noticed a large snapping turtle (14" + diameter) on the bank of his pond. My friend hurriedly went inside and grabbed his Weatherby 240 Magnum. We shot at this location regularly and the shooting bench was close. My Friend deployed his bipod from the bench and took a shot at the turtle. The shot hit right below the turtle in the muddy bank at the water's edge. The impact was reminiscent of a grenade going off. Needless to say the turtle wasted no time getting back into the water.

I went off on the guy for missing such an easy shot (about 80 yards) but he claimed he was shooting a very light bullet where the rifle had been sighted in for a different load. I kidded him about being able to effectively use what you brung.

My dejected Friend goes back inside the house. I walk out to the pond looking for the large turtle. Low and behold I spy another snapping turtle on the bank. This turtle was about 6 to 8 inches in diameter. I pulled my 3913 and shot the turtle with a W-W 115 grain JHP +P+. The impact was obvious as the shell pretty much exploded on impact. I laid my ear muffs down at the spot where I shot the turtle. I went inside and got the laser range finder. It was 57 yards to the dead turtle. I recovered the turtle and took it inside and showed my buddy.

I nicknamed him the Great White Hunter for this and a couple of other escapades. I teased him for years about missing this huge snapper with a Magnum rifle with high powered scope at 80 yards and I get my prey with a 3 1/2" pistol at 57 yards.

My answer will always be a W-W 115 grain JHP +P+ in a 3913, lol.
 
VASCAR2 said:
I carried department issue Winchester 115 grain JHP +P+ ammo in my 3913 NL. This ammo was accurate and reliable...
...My answer will always be a W-W 115 grain JHP +P+ in a 3913, lol.
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Interesting. I still have about a box and a half of the W-W 115 +P+ that an LEO friend from Illinois gave me around 1989/1990.

I've never really thought much about the 147 gr 9mm concept, but I do think that the step up from a 115 to a 124 gr projectile, that many agencies did, generally made sense. The 115 gr +P+ does have merits, too.
 
I no longer have my S&W 3913 NL but have a Glock 43 which is my daily CC pistol. I still have a supply of my old W-W duty ammo but I'm currently carrying Federal standard pressure 124 grain HST.

I see nothing wrong with the carrying my old +P+ 115 grain JHP other than age. When I started carrying 9 MM after retirement I used the old duty ammo until I stocked up on Federal HST.

Honestly I put more faith in tactics and shot placement than the difference in terminal performance between different pistol bullets.

The general consensus today is over penetration is more desirable than a bullet which tends to penetrate less in gelatin. My Agency had good results with the Winchester 115 grain JHP +P+.

Today there are several good carry loads for the 9 MM. My main concern is the pistol is reliable with my carry ammo.
 
I got my Federal 9BPLE 115 +P+ from Lucky Gunner about 2-3 years ago. It is new production in plain white boxes. They said it was ovewr run from a LE contract. The Speer Gold Dot 124 +P is also new production. I got it from LAX Ammo about the same time. It is also new production. IIRC, it is in Law Enforcement marked boxes..I had to send a picture of my Retired LEO ID card to get it.
 
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VASCAR2 said:
...

Honestly I put more faith in tactics and shot placement than the difference in terminal performance between different pistol bullets.
...
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That's long been the case (if not always).

Lots of folks would rather direct their attention and effort to things that can come in a box, though.

A variation of the Talisman Effect.
 
Being a retired LEO training officer and firearms instructor, I agree. Some bullets, though, perform poorly, and zip right through, only expending some of their energy in the target. Some expand reliably and deliver all their energy into the target.

Prior to WW2, the British military establishment understood this. Their lead 265 grain, slow, soft lead .455 Webley seldom over penetrated. It was hard for many to handle, so they switched to the .38/200 MK1 load. It was essentially the Winchester .38 S&W Super Police with a long, round nosed 200 grain bullet. The British loading was about 650-675 FPS, and was so unstable when the long bullet hit, it was guaranteed to tumble and go off in different direction. They performed grizzly test on livestock and cadavers to confirm. It seldom went through the enemy combatant.

2Q6TlXB.jpg


It was so effective in the tests, that the British feared it would be considered a violation of the Hague convention about expanding bullets that cause undo suffering. They switched to a 178 grain, long nosed FMJ Mk2 round to be compliant, though during the war they use d both Mk1 200 grain lead and Mk2 178 FMJ interchangeably.

A good modern design bullet needs to reliably expand so as to deliver as much energy to the target as possible. One of the best wide-scale tests of defensive handgun rounds was done by the Lucky Gunner labs. Most of the current defensive handguns loads are tested in standardized tests in ordinance gelatin.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
 
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That's a great link imarangemaster, thanks.
It got me wondering though, is it common practice to have a winter and a summer defense round?
Here in the midwest a bad guy is likely going to be wearing more layers and or thicker clothing, maybe a leather jacket, in the winter. Versus summertime it's likely going to be a T-Shirt.
Does it make sense to carry a round in the winter that penetrates more, getting through layers of clothing before flesh?
 
KWIndy said:
That's a great link imarangemaster, thanks.
It got me wondering though, is it common practice to have a winter and a summer defense round?
Here in the midwest a bad guy is likely going to be wearing more layers and or thicker clothing, maybe a leather jacket, in the winter. Versus summertime it's likely going to be a T-Shirt.
Does it make sense to carry a round in the winter that penetrates more, getting through layers of clothing before flesh?
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I have heard that some people do have different rounds for summer and winter. Not me. Just one.. I have several go to in each caliber, and use the round that the particular pistol prefers: 6906 likes 115 BPLE +P+, though Glock 19 likes Speer Gold Dot 124 +P more. MY .40 Shield loves 180 Golden Saber.
 
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VASCAR2 said:
...Honestly I put more faith in tactics and shot placement than the difference in terminal performance between different pistol bullets...

...Today there are several good carry loads for the 9 MM. My main concern is the pistol is reliable with my carry ammo.
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Yes, tactics/preparedness and shot placement are paramount. I do like my ammo to be a good balance between recoil/controllability and terminal performance. I have never had any reliability issues with my 908.

Last Sunday, I took the 908 and the Federal Tactical Bonded 124 JHP ammo to the range. 25 yd groups were very good, and the ammo chrono-ed just over 1100 fps. Recoil is a bit snappy, compared with the 115 JHP Federal classic round, but still easy to shoot.

I appreciate all the input here, so far.
 
Not a 3913 or 908, but it's little brother, the CS9 - mine has never jammed in the couple of years I've had it. It's eaten everything I've given it and been reasonably accurate. If I were to use it for home defense or carry (I'm in NJ so no dice there) I'd feed it HSTs or Critical Defense like I feel all my guns and I'm sure it would serve me just fine.
 
My 3913LS shoots low with 115gr and 124gr loads.

It's poa with 147gr Gold Dot ammo.

I need to find a low cost 147gr practice round as the GDs are expensive and these days are unobtanium.
 
My pre rail 3913TW shoots very low with 115gr and just a bit low with 124gr. It shoots where I aim with 147gr which is why that's what I carry in it.

My CS9 shoots to point of aim with 124gr, so I carry that in it.

Back before the current foolishness I always kept my eyes open for 124gr and 147gr ammunition, so I have a pretty good supply of both right now for both range and personal defense.

Hopefully enough to carry me through the current shortage.

Cal44 said:
My 3913LS shoots low with 115gr and 124gr loads.

It's poa with 147gr Gold Dot ammo.

I need to find a low cost 147gr practice round as the GDs are expensive and these days are unobtanium.
Click to expand...
 
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