When Was Peak 3rd Gen

Why not start the weekend off with a fun question that’s bound to be loaded with opinions? Looking through my collection of 3rd gen’s, I love comparing them and thinking about which have the best qualities. So here are my observations spanning from 1988-2007 production.

5904 ”TCE” in 1988 - forged parts, worst DA trigger, can clearly see the 2nd Gen lineage.

411 “TZE” in 1992 - trigger getting better, otherwise nothing noteworthy.

5946 “VJP” in 1998 - tooling marks near frame rails, but slide is so smooth it feels like it’s on ball bearings. Amazing DAO trigger. Large print “9MM” on barrel (doesn’t seem to match convention given the age).

4006TSW “VJB” in 2001 - the crown jewel in trigger pull in both actions. No tool marks.

4006TSW “VJH” in 2002 - the alternate crown jewel and my carry gun. Very tight slide/frame fit (number matched). Factory rail-less, bobbed hammer, decocker only.

4046TSW “BDH” in 2005 - great fitment but a few larger tooling marks on the dust cover and beaver tail. Large print “40 S&W” on barrel.

4566TSW “BDK” in 2007 - just got this one so fewer opinions yet. No tooling marks noticed. Large print “45 AUTO” on barrel.

My takeaways: From these samples I feel that the 2001-2002 guns were probably “peak” 3rd gen. I also decided that I don’t care about forged parts, the MIM and select plastic parts made a better gun. I’m still confident that the quality is there regardless of age, but the late-middle runs seem to be the best overall.

Interested to hear what you all think!

My "new" 5906 issued in 1999 had teething issues. My new 5906TSW that was issued later was awesome. I received it around 2007 - 2008?

In my not so humble opinion, the S&W "3rd gens" peaked in the 2000's with the TSW models, which should be described as the "4th gens".

Everything S&W learned in building and improving their "metal-framed, center-fire, semi-automatic" pistols culminated with the TSW models, and to the extent that "base model" (non-TSW) pistols were built and released simultaneously with the TSW's, the base models also benefitted.

Similar to prop driven fighters (like the Mustang and Corsair) the metal frame S&W pistols reached their zenith just at the moment they were superseded by their polymer framed replacements.

My personal favorites are the 2003 "VJL" prefix TSW models and their base model contemporaries.

John

JohnHL said:

In my not so humble opinion, the S&W "3rd gens" peaked in the 2000's with the TSW models, which should be described as the "4th gens".

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It really does not make sense that Smith & Wesson didn't do exactly what you said here. They should have splattered the "4th Generation Pistols" term all over every single print ad for the TSW pistols.

This actually makes me curious about how much the term 1st Gen and 2nd Gen were actual S&W nomencalture or collector terms that some of us outside of the company made popular.

For sure, S&W made heavy use of the 3rd Generation term in the print advertising of the day, but I can't be so sure that they did the same in the early 1980's when the minigun 469/669's came out, and then the 459/559/659 and similar single stacks and then the 645.

The TSW series of guns share enough parts -- but then also did enough things differently than the 3rd Gens that it only makes sense that all of these should have been considered the 4th Generation pistols.

With all that said... ugh, man, I just don't care for them in SO MANY WAYS! And I absolutely understand that in this forum, I'm the outlier and the crazy one. I admit that straight away. Not trying to be a contrarian, I just know what I love in a handgun and with the TSW series (obviously I mean the 4th Gen guns) it seems like S&W found my hidden list of stuff I dislike and they yanked a ton of bullet points right from it.

I hate billboard writing on firearms... it's downright tacky. I'm not in the minority here, I would venture that most people think it's tacky. I will admit that while everyone in all of gundom hates the word these days, the big fat black bold TACTICAL stamped everywhere was helpful for sales in the 2000's. But good gravy, this looks like absolute hell sprayed the length of a pistol slide.

I totally hate tactical rails on handguns. I certainly understand them and I can't hold this against S&W as it certainly made sense, but I still hate 'em.

I thought the "matched upper and lower" was a bunch of hooey and salesmanship. I've shot 4 or 5 different TSW guns (admitting I've owned only a single one myself) and none of these showed me anything pleasantly surprising in accuracy or felt or acted or performed like an upgrade over my many 3rd Gens. Many will think I'm out of my gourd here, but there it is.

Finally, I thought S&W had completely lost their minds with the pricing of the 4th Gens when these guns were new. Retails in the high $800's to high $900's and beyond, WHAT?! I did not think they could possibly compete with, well, everything else made by anyone else in the market. Now we could argue that tupperware guns killed off the 3rd Gens (4th Gens) but I will just point out that S&W had the TSW guns priced horridly and not at all competitively, at least in my opinion.

Okay, I admit, that was a rant. But it was on-topic!

I'm not sure I can really pin down the apogee of the 3rd Gens, but I can say a few positive things. First is that if you are a 1-2-3rd Gen guy, then you cannot subscribe to any axiom where you categorically write off MIM. The S&W MIM used in 3rd Gens is just the most easily obvious night & day argument for MIM done right that absolutely delivers.

There is almost zero report of MIM-related failures in S&W 3rd Gen pistols... and I think we here that are hardcore and knee-deep in to these guns here in this forum would absolutely hear even scattered odd MIM failure stories if they existed. To be clear, the internet is blasted with MIM hate and MIM failure stories in guns... but not MIM failure in S&W 3rd Gens. My position is that the best MIM in firearms that's ever appeared in large scale is the MIM in S&W 3rd Gens. Fight me!

Next bit of love: S&W's first attempt at a "Value Line" pistol could be argued as a failure to truly save money, make more profit and take back some market share. I say this because S&W did it for less than two years with the 915 and 411 before they went back to the table and REALLY started cheapening things down with the 908, 909, 910 and 410 guns.

But this is where the win is and where my love is -- the 915 and 411 are FANTASTIC guns that look good and work great. The 411 is scarce but the 915 was produced by the truckload in that short window they actually made them. If you find either of these for reasonable money, please take my advice and BUY BUY BUY. These are great guns.

945 3.75”

The absolute best 3rd Gens came from the performance center. The best of the performance center, IMO, is the S&W 945 3.75”. Ergonomic, lightweight, extremely accurate and easy to carry makes it an all around phenomenal pistol. To bad they didn’t make many of them

My only real complaint on the 3rd gen is the one piece grip. The plastic can be slick and any rubber or wood options are bulky. This is where I think the TSW series excels with the more aggressive frame checkering. I for one like the “Tactical” on the slide - to be clear, I’m neutral on the styling of it, but I enjoy it as a nostalgic memory of the early 2000s and some of the trends in the shooting world (like calling a heavy, relatively low capaciy, all steel gun “tactical” because it has a riveted on rail).

hoytx10 said:

The absolute best 3rd Gens came from the performance center. The best of the performance center, IMO, is the S&W 945 3.75”. Ergonomic, lightweight, extremely accurate and easy to carry makes it an all around phenomenal pistol. To bad they didn’t make many of them

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I have made the argument that it isn't correct or fair to classify any true Performance Center pistol as a 3rd Gen. They have related DNA but the parts are different except for the one-piece grip that some PC guns had. And your example of a compact 945 is possibly one of the wrongest you could pick to call a 3rd Gen. There was no production 3rd Gen ever that was anything whatsoever like any 945 they ever made.

The 952 is another example of a PC pistol that couldn't be classified as a 3rd Gen. If anything you could call it a modern update of a 1st Gen model (the 52, obviously.)

It isn't fair to 3rd Gens or to PC semiautomatic pistols to lump these guns in the same category.

kmk008 said:

My only real complaint on the 3rd gen is the one piece grip. The plastic can be slick and any rubber or wood options are bulky.

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It's a valid complaint. I always liked the look of the one-piece grip, but between the complete debacle of the recall grips and the fact that they are all slick 'n slippery, it is definitely the worst feature that was a true upgrade with the debut of the 3rd Gens.

Whenever an objection to an anachronistic feature on an older product is raised, (like "billboards", rails, or even hooked trigger guards) I am immediately reminded of a quote by Thomas Jefferson in a June 12, 1823 letter to William Johnson:

"[O]n every question of construction, [let us] carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed."

While Mr. Jefferson was examining the question of Federal Court supremacy over the states, I am cautious of employing current "standards" when criticizing past conventions.

That is to say, the fashions of the time were new, innovative, coveted, and seemed to make sense at that time.

I am certainly not above the subjective distaste for some stylistic embellishments (Schuetzen Rifles offend my delicate esthetic sensibilities), however, I feel inclined to divorce myself from and view objectively that which "neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg".

John

I hear your argument, it is a quality argument. At the same time, when I think of it, it doesn't feel like nostalgia. Rather, I remember the very last few days, hours and minutes before the ugly spawned and I don't mean Smith & Wesson, but rather any and every gunmaker that thought to billboard their guns.

I feel inclined to divorce myself and view objectively

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Sure, and I agree, however in this discussion we've been invited to go deep in to it, and it's part of it. Look at the WVSP 4566 and compare that to a retail 4566. It's more than just the billboarding obviously, but wow, two examples of the "same" model and one of them looks like pictures of ourselves with our 80's haircut. It ain't nostalgic, it's ugly.

Agreed with above, the 2000s. I look for the black MIM hammers and triggers when shopping for them. The triggers are just nicer, and they're cleaner inside of took marks etc.



Also fully agree about the grips. If you could make some like the hogue design but made from G10 to match the thickness of the factory grips that would be a huge improvement. Not sure why nobody's done it, wood minimum thickness is too thick.

Sevens said:

Okay, I admit, that was a rant. But it was on-topic!

I say this because S&W did it for less than two years with the 915 and 411 before they went back to the table and REALLY started cheapening things down with the 908, 909, 910 and 410 guns.

But this is where the win is and where my love is -- the 915 and 411 are FANTASTIC guns that look good and work great. The 411 is scarce but the 915 was produced by the truckload in that short window they actually made them. If you find either of these for reasonable money, please take my advice and BUY BUY BUY. These are great guns.

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Couldn't agree more....Love my 915's. Perfect EDC for me and never a hiccup.

One would think that during production someone would have developed a nice after market grip that went on the same way as the OEM grips. Other than the outfit in Turkey, all of the aftermarket grips were arguably worse than the OEM grips when it came to fitting in your hand.

The only exception I found was the Hogues for the 69xx guns. They are grippier than the OEM grips without being too wide. Why they never made them for the 39xx guns is beyond me.

kmk008 said:

My only real complaint on the 3rd gen is the one piece grip. The plastic can be slick and any rubber or wood options are bulky. This is where I think the TSW series excels with the more aggressive frame checkering. I for one like the “Tactical” on the slide - to be clear, I’m neutral on the styling of it, but I enjoy it as a nostalgic memory of the early 2000s and some of the trends in the shooting world (like calling a heavy, relatively low capaciy, all steel gun “tactical” because it has a riveted on rail).

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I remember turning my nose up at the ugly Delrin monogrip back in the day but the 3rd gens do have several mechanical improvements over the older SW semi autos.

While I kinda agree its not fair to put the PC series 3rd gens in with the run of the mill guns they are undeniably the best versions ever offered by S&W.
Have a 6906 as well as the Performance Center version called the PC9 which has a slide that is hand lapped to fit perfectly, it also incorporates the Briley barrel bushing system.

Engine49guy said:

I remember turning my nose up at the ugly Delrin monogrip back in the day but the 3rd gens do have several mechanical improvements over the older SW semi autos.

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This is exactly what makes my 1988 5904 tough to connect with. The gun is actually a great shooter and I have almost nothing into it since it was a “rescue” that needed cleaned up pretty badly. But the very early 3rd gen’s feel more like a 2nd gen with a mediocre at best one piece grip and a better looking ambi safety lever.

All of them, they don't make many of them any more.

This is new to me....

I guess I'm lucky. Both my 5943 and my 5904 are jewels.

One of the best looking 3rd Gens is the 3914TSW. That big gold lettering offsets so nicely with the matte bluing of the pistol. It’s a really unique pistol to see. I’m not aware of any other 3rd Gen TSWs with gold lettering. Was there a 5904TSW with gold lettering?

The Performance Center guns from about 1994-early 2000s!