Why not start the weekend off with a fun question that’s bound to be loaded with opinions? Looking through my collection of 3rd gen’s, I love comparing them and thinking about which have the best qualities. So here are my observations spanning from 1988-2007 production.

5904 ”TCE” in 1988 - forged parts, worst DA trigger, can clearly see the 2nd Gen lineage.

411 “TZE” in 1992 - trigger getting better, otherwise nothing noteworthy.

5946 “VJP” in 1998 - tooling marks near frame rails, but slide is so smooth it feels like it’s on ball bearings. Amazing DAO trigger. Large print “9MM” on barrel (doesn’t seem to match convention given the age).

4006TSW “VJB” in 2001 - the crown jewel in trigger pull in both actions. No tool marks.

4006TSW “VJH” in 2002 - the alternate crown jewel and my carry gun. Very tight slide/frame fit (number matched). Factory rail-less, bobbed hammer, decocker only.

4046TSW “BDH” in 2005 - great fitment but a few larger tooling marks on the dust cover and beaver tail. Large print “40 S&W” on barrel.

4566TSW “BDK” in 2007 - just got this one so fewer opinions yet. No tooling marks noticed. Large print “45 AUTO” on barrel.

My takeaways: From these samples I feel that the 2001-2002 guns were probably “peak” 3rd gen. I also decided that I don’t care about forged parts, the MIM and select plastic parts made a better gun. I’m still confident that the quality is there regardless of age, but the late-middle runs seem to be the best overall.

Interested to hear what you all think!

My "new" 5906 issued in 1999 had teething issues. My new 5906TSW that was issued later was awesome. I received it around 2007 - 2008?

In my not so humble opinion, the S&W "3rd gens" peaked in the 2000's with the TSW models, which should be described as the "4th gens".

Everything S&W learned in building and improving their "metal-framed, center-fire, semi-automatic" pistols culminated with the TSW models, and to the extent that "base model" (non-TSW) pistols were built and released simultaneously with the TSW's, the base models also benefitted.

Similar to prop driven fighters (like the Mustang and Corsair) the metal frame S&W pistols reached their zenith just at the moment they were superseded by their polymer framed replacements.

My personal favorites are the 2003 "VJL" prefix TSW models and their base model contemporaries.

John

It really does not make sense that Smith & Wesson didn't do exactly what you said here. They should have splattered the "4th Generation Pistols" term all over every single print ad for the TSW pistols.

This actually makes me curious about how much the term 1st Gen and 2nd Gen were actual S&W nomencalture or collector terms that some of us outside of the company made popular.

For sure, S&W made heavy use of the 3rd Generation term in the print advertising of the day, but I can't be so sure that they did the same in the early 1980's when the minigun 469/669's came out, and then the 459/559/659 and similar single stacks and then the 645.

The TSW series of guns share enough parts -- but then also did enough things differently than the 3rd Gens that it only makes sense that all of these should have been considered the 4th Generation pistols.

With all that said... ugh, man, I just don't care for them in SO MANY WAYS! And I absolutely understand that in this forum, I'm the outlier and the crazy one. I admit that straight away. Not trying to be a contrarian, I just know what I love in a handgun and with the TSW series (obviously I mean the 4th Gen guns) it seems like S&W found my hidden list of stuff I dislike and they yanked a ton of bullet points right from it.

I hate billboard writing on firearms... it's downright tacky. I'm not in the minority here, I would venture that most people think it's tacky. I will admit that while everyone in all of gundom hates the word these days, the big fat black bold TACTICAL stamped everywhere was helpful for sales in the 2000's. But good gravy, this looks like absolute hell sprayed the length of a pistol slide.

I totally hate tactical rails on handguns. I certainly understand them and I can't hold this against S&W as it certainly made sense, but I still hate 'em.

I thought the "matched upper and lower" was a bunch of hooey and salesmanship. I've shot 4 or 5 different TSW guns (admitting I've owned only a single one myself) and none of these showed me anything pleasantly surprising in accuracy or felt or acted or performed like an upgrade over my many 3rd Gens. Many will think I'm out of my gourd here, but there it is.

Finally, I thought S&W had completely lost their minds with the pricing of the 4th Gens when these guns were new. Retails in the high $800's to high $900's and beyond, WHAT?! I did not think they could possibly compete with, well, everything else made by anyone else in the market. Now we could argue that tupperware guns killed off the 3rd Gens (4th Gens) but I will just point out that S&W had the TSW guns priced horridly and not at all competitively, at least in my opinion.

Okay, I admit, that was a rant. But it was on-topic!

I'm not sure I can really pin down the apogee of the 3rd Gens, but I can say a few positive things. First is that if you are a 1-2-3rd Gen guy, then you cannot subscribe to any axiom where you categorically write off MIM. The S&W MIM used in 3rd Gens is just the most easily obvious night & day argument for MIM done right that absolutely delivers.

There is almost zero report of MIM-related failures in S&W 3rd Gen pistols... and I think we here that are hardcore and knee-deep in to these guns here in this forum would absolutely hear even scattered odd MIM failure stories if they existed. To be clear, the internet is blasted with MIM hate and MIM failure stories in guns... but not MIM failure in S&W 3rd Gens. My position is that the best MIM in firearms that's ever appeared in large scale is the MIM in S&W 3rd Gens. Fight me!

Next bit of love: S&W's first attempt at a "Value Line" pistol could be argued as a failure to truly save money, make more profit and take back some market share. I say this because S&W did it for less than two years with the 915 and 411 before they went back to the table and REALLY started cheapening things down with the 908, 909, 910 and 410 guns.

But this is where the win is and where my love is -- the 915 and 411 are FANTASTIC guns that look good and work great. The 411 is scarce but the 915 was produced by the truckload in that short window they actually made them. If you find either of these for reasonable money, please take my advice and BUY BUY BUY. These are great guns.

The absolute best 3rd Gens came from the performance center. The best of the performance center, IMO, is the S&W 945 3.75”. Ergonomic, lightweight, extremely accurate and easy to carry makes it an all around phenomenal pistol. To bad they didn’t make many of them

My only real complaint on the 3rd gen is the one piece grip. The plastic can be slick and any rubber or wood options are bulky. This is where I think the TSW series excels with the more aggressive frame checkering. I for one like the “Tactical” on the slide - to be clear, I’m neutral on the styling of it, but I enjoy it as a nostalgic memory of the early 2000s and some of the trends in the shooting world (like calling a heavy, relatively low capaciy, all steel gun “tactical” because it has a riveted on rail).

I have made the argument that it isn't correct or fair to classify any true Performance Center pistol as a 3rd Gen. They have related DNA but the parts are different except for the one-piece grip that some PC guns had. And your example of a compact 945 is possibly one of the wrongest you could pick to call a 3rd Gen. There was no production 3rd Gen ever that was anything whatsoever like any 945 they ever made.

The 952 is another example of a PC pistol that couldn't be classified as a 3rd Gen. If anything you could call it a modern update of a 1st Gen model (the 52, obviously.)

It isn't fair to 3rd Gens or to PC semiautomatic pistols to lump these guns in the same category.

It's a valid complaint. I always liked the look of the one-piece grip, but between the complete debacle of the recall grips and the fact that they are all slick 'n slippery, it is definitely the worst feature that was a true upgrade with the debut of the 3rd Gens.

Whenever an objection to an anachronistic feature on an older product is raised, (like "billboards", rails, or even hooked trigger guards) I am immediately reminded of a quote by Thomas Jefferson in a June 12, 1823 letter to William Johnson:

"[O]n every question of construction, [let us] carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed."

While Mr. Jefferson was examining the question of Federal Court supremacy over the states, I am cautious of employing current "standards" when criticizing past conventions.

That is to say, the fashions of the time were new, innovative, coveted, and seemed to make sense at that time.

I am certainly not above the subjective distaste for some stylistic embellishments (Schuetzen Rifles offend my delicate esthetic sensibilities), however, I feel inclined to divorce myself from and view objectively that which "neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg".

John

I hear your argument, it is a quality argument. At the same time, when I think of it, it doesn't feel like nostalgia. Rather, I remember the very last few days, hours and minutes before the ugly spawned and I don't mean Smith & Wesson, but rather any and every gunmaker that thought to billboard their guns.

Sure, and I agree, however in this discussion we've been invited to go deep in to it, and it's part of it. Look at the WVSP 4566 and compare that to a retail 4566. It's more than just the billboarding obviously, but wow, two examples of the "same" model and one of them looks like pictures of ourselves with our 80's haircut. It ain't nostalgic, it's ugly.

Agreed with above, the 2000s. I look for the black MIM hammers and triggers when shopping for them. The triggers are just nicer, and they're cleaner inside of took marks etc.



Also fully agree about the grips. If you could make some like the hogue design but made from G10 to match the thickness of the factory grips that would be a huge improvement. Not sure why nobody's done it, wood minimum thickness is too thick.

Couldn't agree more....Love my 915's. Perfect EDC for me and never a hiccup.

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S&WCA # 2045

One would think that during production someone would have developed a nice after market grip that went on the same way as the OEM grips. Other than the outfit in Turkey, all of the aftermarket grips were arguably worse than the OEM grips when it came to fitting in your hand.

The only exception I found was the Hogues for the 69xx guns. They are grippier than the OEM grips without being too wide. Why they never made them for the 39xx guns is beyond me.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

I remember turning my nose up at the ugly Delrin monogrip back in the day but the 3rd gens do have several mechanical improvements over the older SW semi autos.

While I kinda agree its not fair to put the PC series 3rd gens in with the run of the mill guns they are undeniably the best versions ever offered by S&W.
Have a 6906 as well as the Performance Center version called the PC9 which has a slide that is hand lapped to fit perfectly, it also incorporates the Briley barrel bushing system.

This is exactly what makes my 1988 5904 tough to connect with. The gun is actually a great shooter and I have almost nothing into it since it was a “rescue” that needed cleaned up pretty badly. But the very early 3rd gen’s feel more like a 2nd gen with a mediocre at best one piece grip and a better looking ambi safety lever.

All of them, they don't make many of them any more.

I guess I'm lucky. Both my 5943 and my 5904 are jewels.

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"He was kinda funny lookin'"

One of the best looking 3rd Gens is the 3914TSW. That big gold lettering offsets so nicely with the matte bluing of the pistol. It’s a really unique pistol to see. I’m not aware of any other 3rd Gen TSWs with gold lettering. Was there a 5904TSW with gold lettering?

The Performance Center guns from about 1994-early 2000s!

I’m always surprised that the 3rd Gen pistols from the performance center don’t command more at auction. They are some of the nicest pistols I’ve ever held and no longer made unfortunately!

My understanding, which may well be incorrect, is that those were made up after the end of regular production using frames that had been in storage somewhere.

There was a rash of them that popped up on various gun auction sites about ten years or so ago.

I've never seen or heard of a 5904TSW, but with S&W you can never say never. No one had ever heard of the 3914TSW until a bunch just showed up. Then there were those 10 NYPD 3983...

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Can open, worms everywhere.

I'll argue this one a little bit... the 3rd Gens also brought better sights and more sight options but one of my favorite upgrades of the 3rd Gens over the 2nd Gen pistols were the ergonomic improvements, specifically the generous undercut at the base of the trigger guard where it meets the grip frame.

It may not look like much when you compare them visually, but I really appreciate the difference when I grab a hold of the pistol.

I'll tell you where I notice it the most -- my 645 and 745's don't have it, but my 1006 has it and 4506's have it (although I don't actually own a 4506!)

I'm a massive fan of my 745 pistols, the undercut trigger guard would be a dream come true for me.

Performance Center pistols are to regular production S&W pistols

as

Nascar Toyota Camrys are to regular production Camrys...

John

I'm a gargantuan fan of S&W Performance Center semiautomatic and specifically, the Limited series of single action target pistols. They are the absolute center of all that I love and chase and WANT in firearms.

If you want to make every 3rd Gen ever made look ordinary, vanilla, and "meh whatever", just drift a great 3rd Gen conversation to PC pistols.

They are not only in a different class, they are in a different galaxy.

I have the 5906 TSW in the BAW series with the black rail and "9 TACTICAL" emblazoned on the slide. It's a great gun to shoot, having a very smooth DA pull and crisp SA trigger. The only DA/SA gun I have with a better trigger is a Slovak Grand Power K100.

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Release the Kraken

I guess I never thought of this too much since the only 2nd Gen I have is a 639 and the slim grip feels so different anyway that I didn’t pay attention. Although the 639 and 5904 I own essentially have the same sights as they were both the adjustables.

This thread is making me fall in love with the 945’s - I remember back when I was younger and didn’t know as much about them I thought they were pretty stupid. In my eyes then it was just an expensive, customized wannabe 1911. I thought the pairing of essentially a 1911 frame with a 4506 slide was just a half baked attempt at competing with 1911s.

You've got half the answer! Your 5904 has a dovetailed front sight, which opens up a world of options and at the time, that option included night sights.

The 639 has two options for a front sight. Live with what it came with... or find a talented craftsmen to start cutting, grind it off and chisel in a dovetail so you can then begin the search for front sight options.

Kmk008, I’m glad I brought up the 945. Phenomenal pistol’s and extremely accurate. To me The frame is based more off of the 4506/745/645 also as it has the same grip angle. I think of it more as the 3rd Gen version of the 745.

There are actually some pretty big differences between the 2nd and 3rd generation pistols, although they may seem subtle. Much of the work into improving the line came from the very hard work/testing of the Illinois State Police range staff, communicated back to S&W. At the time, ISP was pretty dedicated to the S&Ws and shot the heck out of them using service ammo specifically made for them. I bought some of that 115 +P+ ammo off the state contract in the early 90s; it was about $12/case more than hardball. My Glocks ate it right up. My understanding was that only ISP got warrantee coverage for that ammo, which reflected the symbiotic relationship of the time.

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NHI, 10-8.

The best thing written on the internet since Algore invented it! Sensible sentiment and an appropriate proper quotation.

Thanks JohnHL.

Kind Regards,
BrianD

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696-6906-457-38-3913-CS40-411

GaryS - Hogue does make a two-piece wrap-around grip for the 3913, or at least they did. I found one for mine on eBay, and it was NIB when I bought it about a year ago.

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Heavily armed old man.

I'll have to start looking. I've seen plenty for the 69xx, but never for a 39xx.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Two 4566s, a 4506, a645, and a 915. Put me in the happy group.

Attached Images

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You're most welcome, Brian.

A rare moment of lucidity, then the effects of the surgery wear off and I return to being Algernon...

John

Hogue are in rubber and wood [smooth or checkered] slightly arched backstrap..... been using them for 30 years.

Still on their website $80-105

I hate to flog a deceased equine, but in my humble opinion, the best of the 3rd Gen S&Ws was ... the 2nd Generation!. Others may argue, but to me the absolute zenith of S&W autopistols intended for service and carry occurred with the 639 and others of its generation. My 639 that became the basis of my FrankenSmith is everything I could ask for and some I didn’t even know I “needed”.
We now return you to your previously scheduled thread?
Froggie

That would be so much a minority opinion that, by the numbers, they might call it a statistical anomaly.

I have six of the 2nd Gen series and I have no doubt that the 2nd Gen is well below the 1st Gens and miles below the 3rd Gens.

Some good commentary on the 2nd gen’s here too. Which brings me back to my 639 and 5904. There certainly are a lot more differences than just the grips and some of those changes have been called out in this thread. But my feelings remain - I love the 2nd Gen and I love the 3rd Gen, but id prefer a 2G over a very early 3G. Maybe not on this thread or forum, but any of us that even carry a 3rd gen or use it for home defense are in the minority these days.

Back in the day the 3Gs brought forward some very useful changes at the time that had a lot more importance in their prime. These days most people would write them all off as “dinosaurs” regardless of generation. As part of my collection these days, the 5904 isn’t really any more practical or useful than a 2G and I think the styling of the 2G was a little sharper.

Corrected my 2/25 post to 3913.
I have a 6906 with two different Hogues available, rubber and wood. Neither fit my hand, so it carries an as-new set of factory plastics that I found on Fleabay.
My favorite of the two is the 3913, with Hogue rubber.

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Heavily armed old man.

My "fast" opinion of the generations, generally speaking. Just my quick catch-all that does not do any of them full justice, but is a speedy over view:

1st Gen
The formation of the design. Most of the parts were hand fitted and craftsmen assembled them and proofed them before they were approved to be sent to distributors to get to the customers. Finish was nice and guns looked great, although the anodized frames show wear quickly and some of the late-70's guns show many examples of plum-bluing. Early reputation for only feeding FMJ, absolutely opposite from the ultimate reputation of guns that feed anything including empty brass.

2nd Gen
Firing pin lock made the guns safer and more fit for duty carry. Protected rear sight was not attractive but could survive the apocalypse. Stainless finish arrives which was a huge upgrade and you could finally get an all-steel gun that wasn't specifically a collectible. Finishes, details and parts fitment were not priorities on these guns and the trigger pulls are the worst in the history of all generations. The DA pull was comically heavy. The single action pull was certainly usable, but obviously worse than the silky 1st Gen pistols.

3rd Gen
The pinnacle of the design, although the one-piece grip recall was an early black eye, more upgrades over the 2nd Gen than most folks realize. As the 3rd Gens evolved and the MIM parts arrived, DA trigger pulls were at their very best. Novak sights set the early standard for what duty/carry sights should be. New options for actions including DAO and frame-mount decockers available. The buying public and many dealers easily confused by the guzillion different model numbers, an idea that might have gotten out of hand.

I’d definitely have to agree on the 411. Mine’s been fantastic and is a surprisingly accurate shooter, and I’m a hard-core 10mm guy.

To my mind, the 457 is the greatest of all Value Line pistols, followed closely by the CS guns.

The 457 is really just a budge 4513TSW without the rail. Until not too long ago they were a cheap .45ACP that was reliable and accurate. They are still reliable and accurate, but not cheap.

The CS guns are unique as there is no 3rd Gen equivalent. They are better sub compact carry pistols than just about anything made today.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Steven’s, a million years ago, in the late 80s, Novak’s would do the trigger guard under cut, as well as mill off the front sight and do a dovetail front sight. They’d do a 745 rear on a 645 if you wanted. And they’d do a trigger job. That’s one of the many missed opportunities in my sorted life.

I have a nice old fixed sight 645. It shoots a hot 185 really well.

I have a VJE 4506 that shoots like a target pistol. One fine day, I hit my 3 inch round plate 11 times in a row, standing off hand. That’ll never happen again.

My most recent is a VJE TSW4566. No rail, the 2 holes in the dust cover with the 2 little black buttons.I shoot that gun almost as well as the 4506.

Even tho it’s a good shooter, I bought the 645 mostly because it was cheap, and it’s nostalgia. I was a big Miami Vice fan.

To me, the flagship of the S&W duty autos will always be the last of the 4506s; the ones with the round trigger guard, and laser markings.

The 4566 TSW and the 4506 slides have been sent to Trijucon for relamping. The 4566 shoots 5 inches low at 20 yards, and Trijicon has a replacement rear that will rectify that. I can’t wait to get them back.

Up until they went to the black mim hammers/triggers and rails.

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213th FBINA

What’s wrong with the black MIM hammers?

Nothing is wrong with MIM. As a matter of fact, it is considered an upgrade for the older gen 3 guns. I believe that most folks equate Metal Injected Molding to casting. Those are two very different technologies.

For me the weak point of the one-piece grips was that the mainspring's perch was on the grip, not the frame like the aftermarket Hogue's used with there adapter.

Kind of surprising S&W never replicated that but I suspect they were close with Hogue & didn't want to pay patent right fees or
to steal their niche market.

.

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Waiting for the break of day

Does anyone really think they went to MIM because it was an upgrade? They went to MIM because it was cheaper to make. Lower cost to make means bigger profit to the mfr. GARY