Recently, member kmk008 proposed this thought and response provoking thread: When Was Peak 3rd Gen

In my response to this literary question, I opined that the TSW series of guns was the top.

Others of course, quite logically pointed to the Performance Center offerings.

Even the 2nd gens were mentioned.

All well reasoned answers.

But I got to thinking...

What was it that the design team on the Value Series was able to give us that all the engineers, designers, builders, and pistol smiths of the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen base, TSW, and even the vaunted Performance Center models never achieved?

Your answers, please.

John

Back then I would left the "value series" on a table iffen the table was marked.........FREE TAKE ONE..........

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S&W Accumulator

Cheap, plain looking pistols.

Glock was taking over the law enforcement market, which had been S&W's domain. S&W did not have a low cost, polymer receiver pistol to compete with Glock, so they simplified their metal receiver pistols to create the Value Series. S&W reduced the radius cuts on the top of the slide and the dust cover on the receiver, eliminated the second locking lug on the barrel, MIM trigger and hammer, plastic recoil spring guide rod, disconnector, mainspring cup, and sights. The finish was simplified with no polishing, just a matte surface, aluminum was anodized, carbon steel given a quick pass through the bluing tanks.

It saved S&W money and they passed the savings on to customers, but the pistols looked cheap and were still heavier than a similar size Glock. Given that the Glock was still cheaper, still lighter in weight, and was not a DA/SA trigger design, S&W still lost market share to Glock.

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VCDL, GOA, NRA

Can’t agree with the value series being the apogee of anything.

They gave us value. Good guns that worked for people who were not Navy Seals or Green Berets, who wanted a reasonable basic firearm to defend their homes and learn marksmanship and firearm maintenance with. My first firearm was a S&W Model 915. I still have it, and bought another one. It was doorway to a new hobby leading to many handguns including S&W revolvers,
numerous rifles, shotguns and related activities and most importantly friends. A good investment of $250 at the Berea Ohio gun show all those years back. Thanks OPD Sharpshooter who talked me into the show and buying the Model 915.

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For me the zenith of Smith autos were the 3rd gen pre black hammer/trigger, silly billboards and rails. My favorites are 10XX, 45XX and those with with frame mounted decockers.

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213th FBINA

I wouldn't call the "Value Series" the zenith of anything. Any of them I have owned were replaced with their "proper" siblings at a later date.

Not the top of the of the series but as a young guy in his 20's I was able to afford a 457 and a 915 in one year.
I love them both and still have the pistols.

I’ll join in here as well. I actually really like the frame lines on the 411 and 915. I’m a righty so the ambi-safety doesn’t make a big difference to me. My 411 is far more pleasant to carry than my 4006 and 4004’s are nearly nonexistent.

While I’ve never sought out any of the various “Value Lines” I have accumulated a few. There are things I like about them and things I don’t. I like the lines of the frames with the angled dust cover, (not unlike the 3913/14 LS and NL’s,) but dislike the blocky slides. I don’t like the pressed on spring backed magazine release buttons and plastic sights, (on most.) At least the sights can be replaced/upgraded and release buttons and springs are available.

Even though the Chief Specials are “Value Lines” they are great little pistols. Like many here my first one was a gateway for more.

Thanks to JohnHL I found out with a complete CS40 upper and magazine, (s,) my CS45 can be a convertible. A CS40 barrel can be converted to 10mm so conceivably one lower can be a three caliber convertible. How cool is that ?

Jim

A functionally identical gun to the higher priced versions in the lineup. That, and plastic guide rods.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Is it possible that the Value Line pistols are the Magnavox, Quasar or possibly the Curtis Mathis of the S&W metal framed pistols?

(yes, I had to visit a wikipedia page of old school television brands to populate my post.)

Love my Value Line M411. Great shooter!

All very good and thoughtful answers, gentlemen.

But Jim (4T5GUY) came the closest to my thinking. (Sorry, Jim ).

What the "Value Series" design team brought us that no one at S&W had brought us before was...

(Drum roll)

Sub Compacts!!!

(Compact sized pistols were the smallest metal frame, center fire, semi autos that S&W had released, up to that time.)

The "Chiefs Special" Series!

These pistols are "Value Series" down to their "pea-pickin'" little plastic rear sights and snap on mag release button hearts.

Somebody said, "Let's chop a 457" and the CS40/45 was born.

Somebody else said, "Let's chop a 908" and the CS9 was born.

And they work!

Luckily, they chose to delete the weird plastic front sight and go with the sight from the "higher line" models.

Of course the "Value Series" design team had their off days, too.

Somebody said, "S&W hasn't been able to sell any appreciable quantities of full size, single stack 9mm pistols (especially in blue) since the model 59 was introduced, so let's build the model 909!"

Yeah, I've never seen one in real life either.

So again, my answer is the Sub Compact CS pistols.

S&W has many great designs, but no one there made a sub compact that ran reliably enough to bring to market until the Value Series team did.

Anxiously awaiting your slings and arrows.

John

While there's no doubting the CS's were a Value Series product, in price & appearance, I've tended to look past that because of their uniqueness.

Their guide rod's plastic plunger tip can be swapped with a metal plunger cannibalized from a spare sibling's all metal guide rod, if needed.

Additonally their plastic sights can be swapped out for nice metal Trijicon Night Sights & their magazine's larger, & a tad harder to conceal, finger base plate can be swapped for Kahr's flat metal ones.

And while the single stack sub-compact CS9 was the smallest 3rd Gen it's hard for it to match the dual-stack micro-compact CSX (5th Gen? ) in utility, though not in nostalgia, IMO.

I have room in my safe for both.

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Waiting for the break of day

And the zenith subcompact is the 945.

The Value range got people into S&Ws who couldn't afford the full Gucci pieces. Maybe that does not make them as the zenith of the steel guns, but it is definitely a good thing.

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Release the Kraken

The 909 was a baffling decision as the 3904/06 didn't sell particularly well. The double stack 9mm guns killed the market for full size single stacks. The 3913/14 were smaller versions of the 3904/06 for all intents and purposes. That made a lot of sense.

Along with the 457, the CS guns were the great products of the Value Line guns. Who and why they came up with those will likely never be known, but it was a great decision.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Some with plastic sights..........YUK!

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S&W Accumulator

But but but!!!!! BLUEDOT37 cheated!!!

He’s got some kind of a TercGen style grip on his CS-9. The big gooey black marshmallow they shipped on these was universally abhorred. And the excellent grip that he shows on the photo was not an option. It had to be created.

I owned a CS-9 for a short time. I did not like it, I do not miss it.

Yup-Me too. The CS-9 grip frame and the two available magazine base plates did not produce a combo that I could hold successfully. My pinky was either partially falling off the frame with plain baseplate or smashed with the rest baseplate. A variant of the 391X with the 3" barrel would have been outstanding- it's grip length with the finger rest mag fits my hand like a glove.

Hmmm.... IMO the Value Series has the handling, operation and accuracy of the 3rd Gen pistols at a lower cost. Getting a 457 and later a 908 when I did (well after the years when I was buying pistols for work) has allowed me the luxury of comparing them head to head and I gotta tell ya, even with some plastic (Delrin?) parts, I don't feel like the Values are any less of a gun. All of them regardless of caliber are just a hoot and a half to put a few magazines through.

Well like they say, “beauty is in the eye of the beholder.”

I like hearing that so many don’t like the CS’s. Maybe that’s why most of the ones I’ve found were so inexpensive.

Years ago a new vehicle that came with cheap factory rims/tires was serviceable but custom rims/tires could improve looks and handling. There was value in a base model. You could use that savings to improve that vehicle or not.

Jim

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We’ve all seen businesses that made us think: “Man that place is going down hill.”
And a month or 2 later they’re out of business. That was the value series.

And with that something great died. Never to return.

I make a distinction in my mind between the "American Pride Series", the 411 and the 915, and the "Value Series", the 410 and the 910 etc. If you own a 4006 don't bother getting the 411 or 410. If you own the 411, don't bother with the others. If you own the 410. get a couple of 11 round mags and be happy.

What makes one gun better than another is YOU. Your skill and fight are what counts. A gunfight is more fight than gun.

Kind Regards!
BrianD

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696-6906-457-38-3913-CS40-411

My favorite S&W pistol is the 3913, so much to offer, so well made, so easy to carry. I recently acquired this nice NL example for under $500 all in. Great price now, but I remember when these guns couldn't be given away used at $300.

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Hello Cleveland, Rock and Roll

Should’ve included an obligatory pic of my M411 in my earlier post (#14).

Stumbled into it at the LGS in late 2019 before all the Pandem-panic b.s. It came with the original box, papers, and 3 mags. Finish was worn a bit on the frame near the muzzle, but the internals and the barrel were pristine. This gun was likely carried way more than it was ever shot. Pricing was fire-sale cheap as a “discontinued” gun.

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I have spotted many 3rd gens at the berea gun show. Never for $250 though or I would have a lot more of them.

I know the OP has found the line of thinking he was looking for, but I would also include accessible, quality firearms in that. Something that smith and wesson still does well with the m&p series today.

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Please no more EZs...

What did the "value" series provide that the "1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen base, TSW, and even the vaunted Performance Center models never achieved?"

A horrible external finish, and some plastic internal parts.



Carter

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Along this line of thinking, I would say the 915 is worth mentioning. Unlike the later Value Line offerings, the 915 is a "pure" 3rd Gen internally. Blued steel slide and black anodized frame, without ambi safety or any asthetic cuts. Just a very clean gun. I have one with (now dead) night sights, and it's a very very good gun. Functionally the same as my 5906, but a lot lighter. Ain't nothing "cheap" about it, just inexpensive.

SUB-compacts, Carter.

SUB-compacts...

Making very short barreled, very light slide pistols run reliably on an incredibly wide variety of ammo types and weights is a much greater and much more difficult design, engineering, and manufacturing accomplishment than polishing steel or stamping out small metal parts.

But of course you knew that..

John

No John, I didn't know that. I'm a police armorer, not an engineer.

In my tiny little mind, a plastic disconnector, or anything else created out of plastic, including something as critical as a disconnector, is a giant leap backward.


Carter

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Ret. LE, FA Instr, S&W Armorer

Well, I've followed your posts (with a great deal of admiration) for over 10 years, Carter.

You have a fantastic memory, an analytical mind, and a fine attention to detail.

That hardly is a "tiny little mind"!

Of course you remember the difficulty S&W had making the 645 (and then the 4506) run reliably on anything other than 230 gr. ball.

And when they tried to go compact with the 4516...

Oh, brother did they struggle.

New slide and barrel configurations.

Several different mag and follower combinations.

And again, that was with a compact pistol.

SUB-compacts are that much harder.

When Colt downsized the 1911 to Commander and then Officer sizes, they struggled to get them to run well on just ball ammo.

The "Value Series" team may be guilty of eschewing esthetics in favor of affordability, but they did something that none of their predecessors did, and that was make not only 45, but 40, and 9mm sub-compacts run reliably on a wide variety of ammo.

That is no mean feat.

John

I have a 457 S The only value part is the sights (which are fine anyway) SS slide and guide rod,
Whats wrong with it?

Glocks have plastic sights

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Still Running Against the Wind

Everyone agrees that the “black” finish on the “Value Line” is snastie cheap. Just doesn’t hold up that well at all.

Unfortunately S&W used that finish even on their top of the line, expensive “premiere” PC’s of the time.

I should have started another question thread. What did the “Value Line” AND the PC’s of that time have in common? A very cheap and inexpensive finish.


Jim

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I run 124gr through my CS9 and it works great. I run 124gr or 147gr through all of my 39xx and 69xx guns and there is negligible difference in impact point. OTOH, they all shoot low with 115gr. Well, I don't recall shooting 115 through the CS9.

The only 3rd Gen I own that shoots 115gr well is my 5906. That beast just doesn't care what goes through it.

i've never shot anything other than 230gr through my 457s.

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Can open, worms everywhere.

Read here a while back the CS series was a value line gun but at the time S&W did not market it as such. Bought my stainless CS 9 back around 2000 which has proved reliable. Glad I got the stainless version after reading the black finish was not durable.

They definitely weren't as low priced as the "Value Series".

Maybe they just should have called them the "Better Than Value Series"?

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2004 S&W Catalog pricing



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Waiting for the break of day

Egads. Flip out this image the next time someone says “but why don’t they make them anymore?!”

Good info BlueDot! Bought my CS-9 around 99 and came with the metal guide rod. Forget what I paid for it new but you are right not cheap back in 2004.

Love my 915. It's every bit as good as a 5904 in my book!

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S&W BG380, S&W 915 9mm

Not the zenith, but rather a symptom of Stage 4 polymer cancer.

LOL, wow!!!

I bought my blued 908 as a backup, when I didn’t want to save for the sweet 3913. Which would have cost less, after hard chroming the slide (rust pits from me sweating in summer heat) and paying the extra cost of special night sights (those factory plastic sights). And a steel 3913 guide rod.

It likes 147gr rounds, so that’s what I use in it. Hogue grips. Midway still has recoil springs, last I checked. This is likely a keeper, a lot of history. The 908 remains a good teaching gun for the grandkids, but the CSX seems to have replaced it for carry.

I’ve never owned a CS, but some experienced guys I know think highly of them.

Some years back, before so many gun forums were hacked, and before ownership change of this forum, a gunsmith out of Florida gave a good recommendation for the 915. I still haven’t bought one, but it remains on my list…

And yes, the Value Line were inexpensive, and kinda ugly, but affordable for some folks. And my 908 still runs fine.

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July 4, 1776 not Jan 30, 1909

Smiths have never been cheap.

But from my experience, their MSRPs tended to be a lot more optimistic than realistic.

I recall a price list from the '80s that listed MSRPs from every one of the semi-autos as being higher than the Model 629, except for the lowest priced 3913.

I also recall that they were selling for less than the MSRP to private folks and much less to agency orders.

The 2004 price list shows the CS45 listing for $760.00, but in 2003, I paid around $400.00 for my CS40, and it was new.

But as to "suggested" pricing, the marketing folks certainly knew that there was a "higher line" model for every "Value Series" pistol so they had to be priced lower.

Every "Value Series" pistol, except for the CS models.

And that brings us back to them being "sub-compact".

S&W had nothing comparable to them, so they could be "listed" higher.

John

Exactly.

10-12 yrs ago I got a pawn shop 908. Under $300.00 snasty dirty. I detailed striped it, cleaned lubed all, new recoil spring and NOS grip. I liked it.

A few years later JohnHL mentioned here about the parts compatibility with the 3914. Hmmm. The 3914 parts were readily available for a reasonable price then. I got a four “step” safety/de-cocker, (yep I know ambi but,) flat slide stop and blued steel guide rod. Was that needed, no.

If and when the plastic sights fail I’ll replace them. If and when the plastic pushed on mag release fails, I’ve got new magazine release catch buttons and springs if needed.

I’ve got other like size single stack S&W 9mm’s to compare to and the 908’s are a viable, less expensive, (or they were,) alternative to the others.

Jim

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🤨 🤔 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I agree, street prices can vary. Not likely many people paid MSRP $$ but it's a set price the company valued them at, on some level, that we can only assume was constant across their line of products.

The 3913TSW was more expensive than some of the N-frames in 2004.

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From the same 2004 catalog

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Waiting for the break of day

Hadn't considered it before, but the value series is sort of a step in the Glock direction. More plastic parts, blocked off slide. Ugly as sin. Just like a Glock, only an Al frame.

Lots of other differences, but I am shooting from the hip here..

Rosewood

I had a 1076 and 5903 for years. Found a 908 on the local trader and the guy had already lowered the price like 2-3 times from $350. He finally said, someone make me an offer, so I offered $200 for it, he countered with $225. I accepted. Found I loved it, but wished it was in stainless. Discovered the 3913 and the hunt was on. Finally got a deal on Gunbroker ($360) and it has been my primary EDC since. I am thinking that was 2018 or 2019.

That started my hunt for 3rd Gens. Can't help myself now, think I am around 12 or so.

Picked up a 915 last years at a pawn shop that had a clearance on guns for $215 out the door. Had to clean the slide up some, but it shoots great. Going to blast and blue it one of these days.

Any 4 digit 3rd gen under $400 is almost an immediate purchase. Any value series under $300 the same. Higher prices will take some thought unless it is one I have been hunting or it is a rare one.

Rosewood