F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?

I asked this over at T.H.R. and got some good feed back, so I thought I would ask it here. If their was so much wrong with the .9mm. why not immediatly arm the F.B.I.field agents with .45ACP. handguns after the 1986 Miami shoot out instead of developing a new round ? I think the .10mm. is a grate round & I love my model 1006, I'm just looking for the logic & history.

After the 1986 Miami shootout, the FBI wanted a round that would easily penetrate a car's door and glass.
They wanted something even better at that than the .45, so the 10mm was developed for them as the answer; its power just couldn't be handled by all agents.

Originally posted by WaterburyBob:
After the 1986 Miami shootout, the FBI wanted a round that would easily penetrate a car's door and glass.
They wanted something even better at that than the .45, so the 10mm was developed for them as the answer; its power just couldn't be handled by all agents.

Click to expand...

Funny, the HRT chose a para-ord frame .45 ACP auto that they spent thousands of our $ on only to discover it had mag problems.

They should've stayed with the 9mm.

The FBI studies ranked the 10mm in 180gr only slightly better than the 45ACP with a 230gr (sectional density).
Actually, the study said that if the 45 were to be adopted that they would be satisfied but recommended the 10mm because it was the best.

If you Google Martin Fackler and sectional density a lot should come up. The FBI reports are on the FBI FOIA page, unfortunately I don't have a link handy.

IMO, the "Miami Shootout" was more a failure of tactics and shot placement (and being outgunned by a suspect with a rifle) than an ammunition failure. The ammunition basically performed as it was designed to. The fact that a single bullet that could have been fatal failed to penetrate deeply enough is not a very good argument for changing bullet design, weight, and chambering.

Overall, the Silvertip worked very well (and I suspect it still does). If anything the FBI did the law enforcement world a great disservice by promoting the Winchester Olin Super Match 147 grain JHP as a better overall law enforcement/self-defense round than the 115 grain Silvertip. The circumstances encountered in the "Miami Shootout" were quite unique. No single weapon or ammunition can possibly cover all possible situations.

That said, I think the 10mm is a great pistol cartridge, and I would much rather the FBI and law enforcement in general stuck with it in its full-power loading. It is really not that hard to control in guns like the S&W 1076, it packs a punch, and it is very accurate. I've been in law enforcement over 11 years. Anyone who has enough upper body strength to be able to handle themselves on the street can control a full-power 10mm (and yes, that includes small framed females, I have worked with several who were tough as nails and probably stronger than I am). People who cannot shoot the 10mm can also not shoot the .40S&W, the .45ACP, the 9x19mm, or the .38 Special. They just cannot shoot and use the complaint that the 10mm recoils too much as a crutch to point a finger elsewhere. The grip on single stack 10mm pistols is also slim enough that just about anyone can handle one. No single handgun works for everyone of course.

Too bad the 10mm didn't stick around in greater numbers, I'd love the 10mm ammo and brass to be more affordable so I could shoot mine more.

The 10mm has a higher sectional density. High sectional density = better penetration of auto bodies, auto glass, heavy clothing and getting to the vital organs of large/fat bad guys. The .45 is great for making wide holes in open targets but does not penetrate obstacles as well as the 10mm.


Mike
Indy

IMO, the "Miami Shootout" was more a failure of tactics and shot placement (and being outgunned by a suspect with a rifle) than an ammunition failure.

Click to expand...

As Jeff Cooper said, an agent with a Winchester 94 could have stopped that debacle in short order. It was a case of not bringing enough gun to the gunfight (I believe the Agents were armed only with pistols and had one shotgun among them).

This and the North Hollywood bank shootout taught LE that when you are invited to a gunfight bring a big enough dance partner.

bwh,
I agree with you 1000%.

.45 Autos were authorized for agents almost immediately after the 4/11/86 shootout, and at least one .45 has been on the approved list since. I've carried a personally owned, Bureau approved Sig P220 for over 16 years. Ammo was originally the 185 grain Silvertip, then the 230 grain Hydra-Shok, and now its the 230 Golden Saber.

Field agents can carry the Glock 21, and Sig 220s like mine are grandfathered in, though no longer on the approved list. SWAT agents are issued a Springfield 1911, and the HRT guys carry the hi-cap .45 ACP.

There is a lot of internet bullshit out there about 4/11/86 in general and the 10mm in particular. The Bu did extensive ammunition tests based on what the Bureau wanted a handgun round to do. To their immense credit, they opened the testing up to all commercially available rounds, including the nearly dead 10mm. The testers found the 180/950 round did everything they wanted it to do. The fact that the full power 10 was also available was considered a bonus, much in the way .38 Specials were standard, but .357 Magnum rounds were available as needed for specific requirements.

Full power 10mm was never issued, so the idea that agents couldn't handle the recoil is internet hooey. The 1076 was a very well liked pistol and very few agents who had one wanted to give it up. As recently as three years ago I was qualifying an agent who hung onto his despite repeated efforts to recall it to the gun vault. They finally threatened to dock his availability pay and he returned it.

The testers looked at our shootings and decided they wanted a deeper penetrating 9mm, hence the 147 grain - first the HS, now a Gold Dot. Since we don't issue ammo to other departments, nobody out there was required to follow suit. The 147s have performed as expected, though not that many agents carry 9mms anymore. I know a guy who has killed two bad guys with two rounds of 147 grain 9mm Hydra-Shok. He has no complaints.

The 10mm 180/950 led directly to the development of the .40 S&W, which is the current bureau issue in a 165 grain Gold Dot.

The 10mm is still in service with the FBI, in a 190 grain loading. We use it in these:

The 10mm is still in service with the FBI, in a 190 grain loading. We use it in these:

Click to expand...

NOW THATS A GUN!

Locally, we had an agent who had one of these babys and he was going to let me shoot it. he was later transferred out of town and now in DC.

I never got to play with one.

The head agent here loved his 1076 and fought to keep his. I think he was one of the last ones to turn his in.

Sig220
is the model 13 grandfathered in too?

Sig220
is the model 13 grandfathered in too?

Click to expand...

Nope, no revolvers anymore. The Model 13s and Model 10s were either chopped up, turned into Simunitions guns (and painted orange), or parted out. I once saw some desk sets that were made to give to visiting dignitaries at Quantico. They had the vertical foregrip from a Thompson mounted on a base, with the cylinder of a Model 13 attached as a pencil holder.

you may be able to find some info from this site http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

Sigp220.45-------Consider this a personal invitation....If you're ever in Kentucky, you're welcome to look me up and we'll go to the range. By the way....don't forget to bring that MP-5/10!!!!!!

Sigp220.45

Thank you for your response about the 1076. I may be the person you are referring as one people the Gun Vault coerced into turning in their 1076 for a Glock. LOL

As you know the FBI's ultimate decision to return all its 1076s to S&W under warranty had everything to do with turf battles, egos and politics and very little to do with the pistol's or ammunition's performance. Further, over the two to three year period that the FBI and S&W haggled over the 1076 the .40 S&W had been developed. The FBI saw a way to extricate itself from the S&W entanglement and go with the .40 which had similar ballistics. Ironically, it so happened that the FBI selected Glock to provide the .40s. It also happened that Glock (and firearms manufacturers) had sued the FBI when the original contract had been awarded to S&W.

The FBI contract with S&W was never actually voided, rescinded or canceled, both sides simply "agreed to disagree" and left it at that. That is the only reason the FBI 1076 pistols made it to the commercial market rather than be destroyed as required by law. They were "warranty returns," not trade-ins (which the Feds are prohibited from doing.) It would be very difficult to find a street Agent in the FBI that was issued a 1076 that did not like it. most did not want to give them up. And some took extreme measures to hold onto theirs. Many Agents bought multiple 1076s from S&W as used guns when the FBI returned them to S&W.

Contrary to old myths and legends concerning the demise of the 1076 in the FBI it had little to do with too powerful ammunition, they couldn't handle the recoil (down-loaded FBI 10 mm round or "FBI Lite" was equal to or less than a .357), it was too heavy (only 6 oz more than Model 13 it replaced), too hard to conceal (easier to conceal, it was not as wide), too large for small frame male and female Agents (remedied with addition of resized grips), it suffered from metal failure, cracks in the frame, etc. (one, possibly two documented cases), jams and stovepipes (yes, if you limp-wrist or pull your arm/shoulder back when you shoot - like new shooters do - the pistols jam and stovepipe - Duh - it's a pistol).

I could go on but my point is that the S&W 3rd generation 10 mm pistols are not the dismal failures that history has made them them out to be. Had not the FBI rejected the 1076 the S&W 10 mm pistols might well have developed into an all around well thought of handgun. What strikes me is how little it takes to derail a new firearm or cartridge. Whether true or untrue, fact or innuendo, documented or rumors, information reaching the shooting population does in fact have a huge effect on what is available to us.

I respect everyone's opinion on the forum and I wanted to add mine to this discussion. I think the 1076 is a fine pistol that has been maligned based more on inaccurate information from the outset in the early 90's. And I would like to see the entire truth, whatever it may be, about the 1076 come to light.

Regards to everyone.

D

I agree (obviously.) The 10mm is more thn the .40 S&W can, or ever, will be. this is NOT to denigrate the .40 S&W, It is simply more versatile. Period, end of sentence. The .45 is a fine round, but the 10mm has the ability to accomplish more. In it's full-power permutation, it is THE perfect submachinegun round. There is no reason to "load it down." If you wish lesser penetration, use a lighter projectile. You'll obtain a greater permanent crush cavity and exanguination. (Read: the subject will sustain more permanent tissue damage and will "bleed out" far more quickly.)

Enough said.

Scott

The Firearms Training Unit at Quantico did not make the decision to go with the 10 mm over the .45. Actually, the Director did. The communication sent to him pointed out the merits of both the 10 mm and the .45. It was close to a dead heat. The 10 mm did have a slight edge over the .45 in some respects. One of which was that the 10 mm was a new cartridge that had not been developed to nearly its full potential while the .45 had been around for quite some time and had probably reached the peak of its evolution as a law enforcement cartridge. Regardless of which round the Director selected I think that FTU would have been satisfied with the result. What it did NOT expect, at least the extent, e.g., was the backlash from other firearms manufacturers, certain FBI personnel, and the media. The fact that S&W may have low-bid the contract and did have issues with a few of the pistols it first delivered to the FBI only complicated the situation and enhanced the position of the dissenters. The resulting agonizing long drawn out negotiations served neither the FBI nor S&W well. In the end they both lost.

Slider - thanks for the invite. I'm on the other side of the country but if I'm ever in Kentucky again my MP and I will look you up. I was in Lexington many years ago and you are certainly blessed to live in such a beautiful area.

DMC - I was referring to another agent, but your point is well taken. 1076s had to be hunted down and pried out of fingers in all corners of the Bureau.

The bitter divorce of the FBI from Smith and Wesson is a fascinating and painful subject. I remember the POW list when I came on in '91 was like a Smith and Wesson catalog - every steel frame .38 or .357 with a four inch barrel or less, as well as all the 9mm and .45 autos made at the time were approved. You could be in a bull pen with guys carrying Model 13s, the ever present 2 1/2 inch Model 66, an occasional Model 15, ankles weighted down with Model 36s ("five shots" in Bu-speak), 4516s, 6906s, and the crusty old guy in the corner with a blue worn 3 1/2 inch Model 27. Smiths were so dominant that the few guys with grandfathered Pythons and Dick Specials were looked at with awe.

Now - no Smiths anywhere. None on the approved list, and none of the older ones are grandfathered in.

And the issue pistol is, of all things, a Glock. The one gun the FTU swore for years would never be authorized.

What a topsy turvy world!

Sig,

And here I thought I was the one they threatened to take away AUO. They got me in 10/98 when I was dumb enough to qualify with it at an HQ shoot. DOH! And then they melted it down!

There's a good reason the Agents all had S&Ws. with a few exceptions that was all they were authorized to carry (you forgot the best one though, the Model 19 4"). In the mid-80s the Bureau called in ALL Bureau owned and issued Colts. And I mean ALL. I was issued a Det. Spec. as well as my Model 13 and off it went back to the Gun Vault along with every other Colt in the entire field. The reason? The Gun Vault convinced some executive that it was too costly to maintain a parts inventory for both firearms, i.e., Colts AND S&Ws, and it was too costly to maintain gunsmiths trained to repair both types of firearms. I'm not kidding one little bit. And to make matters worse, since the FBI couldn't find another law enforcement agency that wanted the Colts they were obliged to cut them up (this was before the smelter). There were literally 1000s of Colts that would be considered rare and collectible today and their remains were buried on Quantico's artillery range. At the same time all Colts were removed from the POW list. No parts, no gunsmiths, no Colts - no problem.

So, the reason you saw only S&Ws in 1991 was that other than a few Sigs for SWAT agents that is all we could carry. A similar tragedy happened when the FBI transitioned from the Model 13 to pistols. It had been approved at THE highest level for Agent to purchase their Model 13 should they chose to. Then the Gun Vault got involved and complained that it would be too much trouble and take too much of their time. Result: buy back program nixed. Tragedy: 10,000 Model 13s destroyed.

The crusty old guys you saw carrying the Colts - were just that - crusty old guys that probably didn't pay much attention to what any suit told them to do. They wanted to carry their POW Colt and they did. But they weren't Bureau Colts unless someone pulled a fast one. And we all know that never could happen. LOL

Regards,

D

Originally posted by sigp220.45:
DMC - I was referring to another agent, but your point is well taken. 1076s had to be hunted down and pried out of fingers in all corners of the Bureau.

Click to expand...

They certainly had to pry mine away from me. My SSRA finally threatened to shoot me with a tranquilizer dart and remove it from the holster while I was out cold. Ironically, I still had a Model 13 signed out for several months after that. Then they got it too! I was quite happy when I was carrying the 1076 on-duty and my off-duty was a S&W 3913. I believe the 4506 was still on the POW list at that time (I know the P220 was), but I was quite content with my 1076/3913 combination.
Gonzo