Over the years I was a fan of Black Talon and Hydrashok ammo and have a fair amount stockpiled. How does it stack up against some of the new products on the market, should I be upgrading for improved performance?
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BLACK TALON & HYDRASHOK vs. NEW STUFF
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Over the years I was a fan of Black Talon and Hydrashok ammo and have a fair amount stockpiled. How does it stack up against some of the new products on the market, should I be upgrading for improved performance?
BADSBSNF811
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The newer stuff benefits from continued R&D and materials improvement.
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I never cared for Winchester Silver Tip, Remington Golden Sabre or Winchester BT, although the same thing (minus the black color) continued to be available from Winchester as the "Supreme Expansion Talon" in the Ranger LE only line or the SXT in the commercial line. Thus, "stockpiling" was and is not really necessaryif you like Win BT. Just get the Ranger S.E. Talon or the commercial SXT.
HydraShok was always better in my opinion, and it is still good, except in 9mm, where my coice is Federal 9BPLE, or, if you cannot get that, then there are several others almost as good, and except in 38 special, where my choice is still the FBI load or the Gold Dot Short Barrel. Oh yeah, in .357, I still like the Federal 125 grain SJHP rather than HydraShok.
The new Winchester line, called PDX1 is very promising, however, and is apparently the new choice of the FBI after extensive testing.
In short barrels, the Gold Dot short barrel is qutie good.
gatorhugger
Member
Black talon/Ranger is as good as it gets.
I have tried HST and Sabers, they are just as good as well. But I have to laugh when I hear the Black talon is outdated. It's not.
Shoot a roast or a some chickens with a few and tell me it's outdated.
They penetrate and expand. What more can you ask for?
I have tried HST and Sabers, they are just as good as well. But I have to laugh when I hear the Black talon is outdated. It's not.
Shoot a roast or a some chickens with a few and tell me it's outdated.
They penetrate and expand. What more can you ask for?
Karl in NY
Member
My first choice for 9mm, too, influenced perhaps by the fact that my agency issues it and I therefore get it at the right price...
Federal 9BPLE is +P+ and sales are restricted to LEO agencies only (restricted by Federal, not by law). It's commonly available online at surprisingly reasonable prices (still sold in regular boxes of 50 rounds, not in 20-round jewel boxes like much premium ammo nowadays.
Also, just my opinion, but personal defense ammo does not necessarily have to rank high on the FBI tests...few civilians will need the ability to penetrate glass and autobody sheet metal, for example. The FBI tests represent a compromise...civilians are probably better-off selecting a bullet by its gelatin penetration/expansion alone and ignoring results on angled automotive windshields.
Cruiser RN
Member
From my experience in helping take the bullets out of people and helping repair the damage,the greatest amount of damage I witnessed from 1 round is from the black talon round.It opened up and acted like razor barb chewing up everything in sight.That is why my 9mm has the SXT rounds in it.One very nasty round.....God Bless.........Mike
sipowicz
Member
Our dept. used the 147 RA9T....excellent round...supposedly, it works even better than the .45 Ranger ammo...some guys with .45's are going back to the 9 because of the ammo.
CAJUNLAWYER
Member
I aways put mecury in the hollow points-cap them with molten led and then carve a tiny cross in the nose. I then put them in dog droppings, allow them to dry and then use as usual. I'll let you know what happens when I use one.
There is a major difference between the older Talon and Hydra Shok and the newest Federal HST ammunition. I would agree that all SD ammunition is quite lethal, but to say that they are equal would be quite wrong.
How is it better:
* Better expansion
* Better weight retention
* Far less jacket separation
This is how HST ammunition expands over 95% of the time.
I've recovered rounds from water jugs, phone books, frozen soil and yes from flesh (animal, not human) and the expanded rounds always look like the above picture... It's kind of eerie.
It is not just marketing hype and can be seen in the LE agency testing in the link below. (Federal sponsored the testing but all testing was performed by the LE agencies.
http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx
How is it better:
* Better expansion
* Better weight retention
* Far less jacket separation
This is how HST ammunition expands over 95% of the time.
I've recovered rounds from water jugs, phone books, frozen soil and yes from flesh (animal, not human) and the expanded rounds always look like the above picture... It's kind of eerie.
It is not just marketing hype and can be seen in the LE agency testing in the link below. (Federal sponsored the testing but all testing was performed by the LE agencies.
http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx
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I re-read all of the comments prior to yours, and I did not see that anyone said BT is "outdated."
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Be sure to lay in a supply of silver bullets for werewolves and those occasional trips to the Caribbean where you may encounter zombies, voodoo and the like.
gatorhugger
Member
Shawn this was posted before I posted. This was what i was referring to when I said some people think original Ranger/talon is outdated.
Also BBGLASS then came on saying HST is better, and listed 3 improvements including improved Expansion.
Personally I carry HST. It's cheaper and does just as good as Ranger. But there is a definite lean that because Talons are 20+ years old they needed improvement.
Like the other couple of members here stated, talons are some super bullets. I have shot plenty and carried them for years. A 147 grain talon/Ranger is just one great bullet. Old or new. They also open up just like the HST's, have those sharper edges(which I am not sure would make a difference but it might) and will penetrate 12" in solid meat.
Nothing wrong with "old" rangers, or the new improved rangers. Whatever improvements they made, I cannot tell the difference. They flower up every darn time and go deep. That also goes for HST, and Golden Sabers. It's all splitting hairs. All are fine bullets. Old or new varieties.
gatorhugger
Member
These were shot in meat, stopped by wet phone books after traveling through lots of tripe, fat,and muscle.
(and for you 380 fans, that golden saber at the bottom is pretty impressive against the bigger 9mm)
Hst versus old talons on the right. Both huge blossums, heavy recovered weight, no grain loss.
Those old white box LE marked ranger/talons are still some good stuff. Buy em if you can find em. They still work good.
(and for you 380 fans, that golden saber at the bottom is pretty impressive against the bigger 9mm)
Hst versus old talons on the right. Both huge blossums, heavy recovered weight, no grain loss.
Those old white box LE marked ranger/talons are still some good stuff. Buy em if you can find em. They still work good.
Vanman
Member
The HST rounds look suspiciously like the PMC "Starfire" ammo, which was developed by the same fellow that developed the Hydrashok ammo for Federal.
bigt5150
Member
I agree with you vanman, I remeber the introduction of the PMC Starfire line of ammo. The mushroomed bullet looks pretty much identical.
Mickstix
Member
I was reading (somewhere, maybe here?) where Federal is bringing back NYCLAD ammo.. They've got it listed on their site, but only in .38spl so far.. Hopefully they'll bring it back in all calibers..
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=828
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=828
Karl in NY
Member
The expanding handgun bullet industry has been dominated by just two designers. I don't fully understand the industry politics, but found the following excerpt interesting:
From the "father" of Hydra-Shok, Starfire and Quik-Shok
News at the time:
End of an Era?
The last week of August 2003 saw various firearms industry representatives address the stable of gunwriters whose work most frequently appears in the titles (G&A, Shooting Times, Handguns) published by Primedia.
Federal/ATK's Alan Corzine, a patent co-holder of Olin's notorious "Black Talon" of the early '90s, dropped the bombshell that his current employer, Federal/ATK, would be discontinuing their immensely successful Hydra-Shok line of handgun ammunition.
ATK Product Development Manager Drew Goodlin said in a 24 August Gun Talk radio interview with Tom Gresham that Federal didn't even have a name for the new round yet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update:
The Era Extends
In August 2005 Corzine's ATK employment was terminated, and Hydra-Shok is still a very viable part of Federal's product line.
From the "father" of Hydra-Shok, Starfire and Quik-Shok
News at the time:
End of an Era?
The last week of August 2003 saw various firearms industry representatives address the stable of gunwriters whose work most frequently appears in the titles (G&A, Shooting Times, Handguns) published by Primedia.
Federal/ATK's Alan Corzine, a patent co-holder of Olin's notorious "Black Talon" of the early '90s, dropped the bombshell that his current employer, Federal/ATK, would be discontinuing their immensely successful Hydra-Shok line of handgun ammunition.
ATK Product Development Manager Drew Goodlin said in a 24 August Gun Talk radio interview with Tom Gresham that Federal didn't even have a name for the new round yet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Update:
The Era Extends
In August 2005 Corzine's ATK employment was terminated, and Hydra-Shok is still a very viable part of Federal's product line.
Capt Steve
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Are Black Talons still available? I had a full magazine, ten rounds of BT's in my 9mm for years. A neighbor said he was interested in getting a pistol and asked me to take him shooting. I took him, my MP9C (with 3 magazines), and the Smith 649 to the local range and checked him out on both. When we arrived I unloaded the BT magazine and set it aside intending to reload with it when we were through. The neighbor really liked the MP9C and we shot several boxes of cheap Wally world ammo.
When I went to reload the BT magazine, you guessed it, was empty. Neighbor boy had blasted my last ten rounds of BT's at target 10 yards downrange. I never did tell him how much those ten rounds cost and what they were intended for. So can I still buy Black Talons?
When I went to reload the BT magazine, you guessed it, was empty. Neighbor boy had blasted my last ten rounds of BT's at target 10 yards downrange. I never did tell him how much those ten rounds cost and what they were intended for. So can I still buy Black Talons?
gatorhugger
Member
No, but you can still buy Rangers. Same thing, different color.
Bout $25 for 50 at various on line sites.
Or you can get early 1980's marked black box talons at gunbroker or at gun shows for $50 a box.
Never quite understood why people pay twice as much for older ammo. Ranger is Talon.
Some folks Just love that Talon name and evil black coating I suppose.
Bout $25 for 50 at various on line sites.
Or you can get early 1980's marked black box talons at gunbroker or at gun shows for $50 a box.
Never quite understood why people pay twice as much for older ammo. Ranger is Talon.
Some folks Just love that Talon name and evil black coating I suppose.
