Spotteddog
Member
KRYLON semi-gloss black and blue masking tape
BLACK TALON & HYDRASHOK vs. NEW STUFF
- Thread starter SPEEDGUNNER
- Start date
george minze
Member
Heck why not also rub them in pig fat and cover all bases.,,I have always wondered if that mercury stuff actually worked. You are ready for every thing up and including vampires. Good planing...
Originally posted by gglass:
There is a major difference between the older Talon and Hydra Shok and the newest Federal HST ammunition. I would agree that all SD ammunition is quite lethal, but to say that they are equal would be quite wrong.
How is it better:
* Better expansion
* Better weight retention
* Far less jacket separation
This is how HST ammunition expands over 95% of the time.
I've recovered rounds from water jugs, phone books, frozen soil and yes from flesh (animal, not human) and the expanded rounds always look like the above picture... It's kind of eerie.
It is not just marketing hype and can be seen in the LE agency testing in the link below. (Federal sponsored the testing but all testing was performed by the LE agencies.
http://le.atk.com/general/irl/woundballistics.aspx
how many wet phone books did you use? i have a tree stump i want to use as a back stop and want to know how many phone books i would need for my 45 to get them to open up like that. i want one opened up like that to keep.
It depends on the size of the phone book... Not too many if you're from LA or NYC.
The most pristine bullets will come from water filled milk jugs. The .45 HST will usually penetrate 3-4 jugs, but you will want 6 lined up just in case you have a slow expander.
My son has what looks like a flower arrangement made from these beauties.
Hmmm... I think roses would be far cheaper.
gatorhugger
Member
Phone books aren't a real great test, nor water.
Buy some beef tripe, it's cheap
Put it in a box, with some fat, butchers give it away.
Wet the meat mixture good.
About 8 inches of meat will do which doesn't seem like a lot but is really many pounds.
Put one wet, really soaking 4 inch thick phone book under the box.
The phone book, just one, will stop the slug after it's expanded and lost most of it's energy in meat. The goal should be having the phone books stop the slug, so you are not digging in tripe/fat to recover the bullet, but you get to see how the hollowpoint acts in meat.
Just my way of testing and works good for cheap hollowpoint testing. Probably as realistic as we can get, certainly better than water jugs and phone books.
Buy some beef tripe, it's cheap
Put it in a box, with some fat, butchers give it away.
Wet the meat mixture good.
About 8 inches of meat will do which doesn't seem like a lot but is really many pounds.
Put one wet, really soaking 4 inch thick phone book under the box.
The phone book, just one, will stop the slug after it's expanded and lost most of it's energy in meat. The goal should be having the phone books stop the slug, so you are not digging in tripe/fat to recover the bullet, but you get to see how the hollowpoint acts in meat.
Just my way of testing and works good for cheap hollowpoint testing. Probably as realistic as we can get, certainly better than water jugs and phone books.
Bobwtn
Member
Gator, that beef tripe looks like something we in Tennessee would fry and eat after shooting it all day.
For everyone that took pics on this posting, some very good pics of the bullets. Great job and great info to see those rounds like that.
For everyone that took pics on this posting, some very good pics of the bullets. Great job and great info to see those rounds like that.
safearm
US Veteran
Gold Dot has been around for enough years to demonstrate solid performance. In 9mm, I prefer the medium weights (124 +P) as I believe they are the best combination of expansion and penetration (used by NYPD and Denver PD). The new Ranger Bonded series is also an excellent round (used by Chicago PD). I've carried Hydra Shoks and Winchester 115 grain +P+ (ISP load) in the past, but now there are better rounds, i.e., GD, Ranger Bonded, Ranger T, HST, and Cor-Bon DPX.
smith627
Member
I trust the old Black Talons I bought back in the early 90's and hope I never have to use them in a SD situation. Handloads 4.3gr Unique fired from Beretta 92FS thru several water jugs.
norfdet
Member
No one mentioned the Speer GDHP line, my department issues the 124gr+p which was a vast improvement over our 147gr sub sonics. The next department over issues the Ranger +P+ stuff and they have had great success with that too.
The web-site in my profile has some great wet-pack testing complete with pictures if anyone is interested. Although I will say that the beef tripe is a new recipe that I have not heard of.
The web-site in my profile has some great wet-pack testing complete with pictures if anyone is interested. Although I will say that the beef tripe is a new recipe that I have not heard of.
You can find some very good info on auto pistol loads in the Terminal Ballistics forum at http://www.m4carbine.net. Look for a stickied thread on Service Pistol ammo recommendations, originally posted by DocGKR.
Also it would probably be useful to test some of your carry ammo candidates under low light conditions as I'm told that there are significant differences among different makes in terms of muzzle flash.
My preferences are Winchester Ranger, Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST, in 147 grain for 9mm, 180 gr for .40 S&W, and 230 grain for .45 ACP. I prefer standard pressure, not +P, in these cartridges.
Also it would probably be useful to test some of your carry ammo candidates under low light conditions as I'm told that there are significant differences among different makes in terms of muzzle flash.
My preferences are Winchester Ranger, Speer Gold Dot or Federal HST, in 147 grain for 9mm, 180 gr for .40 S&W, and 230 grain for .45 ACP. I prefer standard pressure, not +P, in these cartridges.
Chubbs103
US Veteran
My preference has been for the Federal HST 230grain (.45acp). Last time I was running different brands through to make sure what my pistol liked, I was noticing significantly more flash from the Corbon products.
animalmother
Member
I still use Federal Hydra Shok in my 45s. I have the older style Cor-Bon JHP and Nyclad in 9mm. I don't see any reason to go out and replace what I currently have. This ammo is no less leathal.
BillCa
Member
I find the "history" to be interesting.
Tom Burczynski designed and patented the Hydrashok bullet and went on to design the PMC Starfire, Quick-shok and the Federal EFMJ round. Corzine was a V.P. at Winchester and developed for market Winchester's Fail Safe, Black Talon and SXT. He also consulted with Taurus on their 99.95% pure copper "Hex" bullet (essentially a Barnes X-Bullet for handguns).
The truth of the matter is that today's JHP designs are by far and away superior to the best JHP ammo available prior to 1985. Some of the best designs, IMHO, are:
- Speer Gold Dot
- Federal HST
- Federal Hydrashok
- Remington Golden Saber
- Winchester SXT (aka Talon, Black Talon)
- Winchester Silver-Tip
The above list is not in any particular order.
If you use any of the above and it is accurate out of your gun, you're probably using the best ammo you can get. The differences are not enough to bet your life on.
Note also that new ammo today that is marked HydraShok or Silver-Tip are improved versions of the older, original designs.
In selecting ammo, my criteria has always been:
1. Reliability - it has to go bang when I want, [/i]every[/i] time.
2. Accuracy - The best ammo is worthless if I can't hit the target.
3. Control - If the round recoils excessively, like some +P+ loads, follow-up shots may not easy.
OP
BillCa's response begs the question: Do you practice with Black Talon and Hydrashok's at $.50-$1 a round, or practice with regular ammo and save the hi-tech rounds for self defense?
cshoff
Member
My minimum standard, and the one I recommend my students use, is no less than 200 PROBLEM FREE rounds through your carry gun, before you consider it reliable enough to bet your life on. As for me, I also pre-check the fit of every single cartridge to my barrel, of all of my carry ammo. Surprisingly, every now and then, you will find one that doesn't like to go in or come out real smooth, even in the high dollar premium stuff. When I find rounds like that, they become target ammo.
I remember using the older black talons in my back up .357.I have been trying to find some for my .40 cal.This the only thing i have found thats close to what i've been looking for.They are priced good i guess,so i ordered some.total for 50 rounds and shipping $39.05 for Winchester Ranger SXT
www.tds-us.com good luck,btw they have other types of ammo to.
www.tds-us.com good luck,btw they have other types of ammo to.
cshoff
Member
The SXT's are essentially the same as the BT's, less the black coating.
You can still get the Ranger Talon ammo in .40S&W from various places on the internet, it's just a matter of timing.
bbaaspencer
Member
I just ordered a box of Ranger Talon 9mm 124+ and a box of Ranger Talon 45acp 230 from ammuntiontogo today. It ended up costing (including shipping) $101! I tried to find some in my exact size and weight for the last 3 months on several websites and finally found some today. Is there any place I can get them cheaper and in stock?
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