130gr HST ...... help

[mikld]

Federal has no loading data on this bullet or any other powder company, right now.

You can't control anything without data.

Any of us trying to load this bullet are in the dark and flying by the seat of our pants...................
until we get some numbers down on paper and a pattern starts to emerge.

We will put the puzzle together................
just that we are walking through a mine field right now with the really deep bullet seating and no powders listed right now.

Taking small steps with my J frame and larger ones with the 686 loads, right now.

Every revolver bullet I've loaded, since 1969, I have seated bullets to the crimp groove or cannalure and went from there. 99% of the time I stayed there (5 revolver cartridges loaded in 6 revolvers, tens of thousands of rounds.). I just wondered why would anyone start a load work up with the bullets seated way deeper than the bullet is designed to be seated...

 

[STORMINORMAN]

As he says...

This is not a cannelure on these freedom pills. These are truly wad cutters and meant for 38spl and 38spl+p. That ring is there to prevent jacket lead seperation.

This is designed by Federal to be loaded as a wadcutter. Not saying they CAN'T be loaded long: but, why...?

Cheers!

P.S. Will someone PLEASE measure the length of a standard lead 148gr wadcutter so it can be compared with the 0.603" measurement on this Federal bullet?

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Thanks!

.591 cast wadcutter, federal hst .605

FYI I did load my 357magnum loads long. I kept seating deeper and deeper until they would chamber in the cylinder.

In my 38spl +p load with HS-6 they are loaded flush.

I would imagine that 0.014" is not going to pose a significant reduction in case volume with a bullet that weighs 18gr less to boot...?

Thanks & Cheers!

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Thanks!

.591 cast wadcutter, federal hst .605

FYI I did load my 357magnum loads long. I kept seating deeper and deeper until they would chamber in the cylinder.

In my 38spl +p load with HS-6 they are loaded flush.

I would imagine that 0.014" difference would not result in a significant reduction in case volume with a bullet that weighs 18gr less to boot...?

Thanks & Cheers!

P.S. How did this duplicate (well, almost) happen?

 

[Nevada Ed]

A 148gr HBwc from Speer is around .63" +/- in length.....
but it has a hollow base.

A 148 BBwc that I use, has a length of .57"......
but if you use the 1st crimp grove, the OAL is 1.25" and it will seat .47".
If you use a OAL of 1.16" this bullet will seat +/- .57"........
the same as the Federal 130 HST set at a OAL of 1.18"

So you can use the 148 BBwc to get an idea of what the 130 JHP will do in the recoil department and fps............
if you want to save the HST bullets until you are ready to get down to brass tacks?

I will testing in a few days............
just have to wait for the two fires in the area to pass or burn out and have the air clean up a little.

Later.

 

[Nevada Ed]

This is designed by Federal to be loaded as a wadcutter. Not saying they CAN'T be loaded long: but, why...?

Fheers!

P.S. Will someone PLEASE measure the length of a standard lead 148gr wadcutter so it can be compared with the 0.603" measurement on this Federal bullet?

Just to clear things up.......................

This Federal 130gr HST that came out in May of 2017..............
is a "Micro" loading designed for a 38 "Short barrel" less than 3"............
with enough fps to still expand in a snub nose and meet a "+P loading" per Federal's engineer's.

The deep seating is done to improve ES and ignition as well as performance.

You don't have to follow Federals way of loading this style of bullet.................
just that I like do what the "Big Guys" do when they put ammo out on the market place, since there is generally a good reason and testing behind it's development.

Stay safe.

Edit;
picture of bullet stick out for the 130gr HST micro......
which depends on the case total length !!

 

[Bastogne71]

I’m back

From the range that is.

Firearm: S&W model 640 Pro with 2 1/8” barrel

Components:
Federal 38 special brass cases
CCI 500 small pistol primers
130 grain HST bullets
1.18” overall length
Alliant BE-86 powder:

4.6 grains, 825fps, SD 12
4.8 grains, 861fps, SD 6
5.0 grains, 871fps, SD 12
5.3 grains, 950fps, SD 32

Hodgdon Titegroup:

3.2 grains, 727fps, SD 22
3.4 grains, 758fps, SD 9
3.6 grains, 809fps, SD 11

No pressure signs. All cases extracted ok & fired primers were normal. It looks to me that about 4.7 grains of BE-86 will pretty much duplicate the Federal load.
The Titegroup loads needs to be bumped up a little. Next time I’ll try 3.8 & 4.0 grains.
I did not shoot for accuracy but all the bullets impacted 4-6” low at 25 yards.

Hope this helps you!

 

[Nevada Ed]

Thank you for the first data with this bullet that has been in the dark.

It is always nice to have a little data to add to our log books, when there in none or very little, out there.

I am also loading, to see how much Recoil difference there if from the 130 "Micro"
than the 135 Gold Dot, that will come from my J frame, that I shoot.

Again, thanks for getting the ball rolling.

As a note;
with my mixed brass cases running from 1.14 to 1.15" in length
my first loads were set at a OAL of 1.22" for my first try.
When I put my "Good Glasses" on, I saw where a 1.18" oal might be factory setting, with a 1.15" case.

I might also have to "mike" my future cases for a better crimp at or after the bullets cylinder/Ogive spot..........
or heavens to bid, finally have to trim a .38 special case !! ??

Stay safe.

As for fps out of short barrels, here are some figures I found on
shooters trying the 130 HST factory ammo out in their weapons.
S&W642............ 804 fps
Kimber 2" ......... 824
S&W342 ........... 782 **
S&W638 ........... 831

800fps minimum ** to insure 100% bullet expansion.

 

[SquarePizza]

I stayed with the speer GD as a model for all of the federal HSTs that I have been shooting. Been shooting these for almost a year and enjoy them.

Based past experiments I know that reducing case capacity can increase pressure that results in higher MV and lower ES. However, on defensive loads I never worried about ES. My precision rifles sure, but a defensive load that will see a make of 25 yards, not so much.

 

[sniper]

130 GR. Federal HST

The Lucky Gunner tests showed great expansion between 825 and 850 fps., which passes the FBI protocol.
In my never-humble opinion, it would probably be best to stick with something close to those velocities, to achieve the results that these Federales seem to be designed for. I will load mine in 357 Magnum brass, at a visual O.A.L similar to Federal...with about 1/8" or less peeking from the case, and crimping around the ogive curve. As for "overpenetration", Remember that old B-grade thriller "Electraglide in Blue"? Where Robert Blake shot at someone, and supposedly, the bullet passed through the target, and hit an older man some yards away? We have carefully been brought to the belief that overpenetration is EVIL! Not entirely so! A"full wadcutter" load at 800-850 fps is said to be able to penetrate 30" or so through a steer or large hog. In my opinion, we are too much governed by "book numbers". A minimum penetration is all well and good, but a little more(although maybe not as much as 30") may not be a bad thing.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Went to Cabelas today: found the last two boxes (100's) of FEDERAL GOLD Large Magnum Pistol primers, then I bought three boxes of Federal GOLD Large Rifle primers as well...

Their entire stock of pistol ammunition was on a 4-shelf end bay. No 9mm, no 380 acp, no 45 acp, a couple boxes of 40 S&W, some 45 Colt & 357 Magnum (@ $1 per), and some 454, 460, 480, 500...

There were a half dozen 20 round boxes of 180gr STREAK in 40 S&W. Is RED the only color?

Most interesting to me were the dozen boxes of FEDERAL HST in 130gr 38 S&W +P at $23.99 per box. A guy asked me about them and I told him "I reload these...": he bought them all.

Cheers!

 

[ddixie884]

That's some good info

From the range that is.

Firearm: S&W model 640 Pro with 2 1/8” barrel

Components:
Federal 38 special brass cases
CCI 500 small pistol primers
130 grain HST bullets
1.18” overall length
Alliant BE-86 powder:

4.6 grains, 825fps, SD 12
4.8 grains, 861fps, SD 6
5.0 grains, 871fps, SD 12
5.3 grains, 950fps, SD 32

Hodgdon Titegroup:

3.2 grains, 727fps, SD 22
3.4 grains, 758fps, SD 9
3.6 grains, 809fps, SD 11

No pressure signs. All cases extracted ok & fired primers were normal. It looks to me that about 4.7 grains of BE-86 will pretty much duplicate the Federal load.
The Titegroup loads needs to be bumped up a little. Next time I’ll try 3.8 & 4.0 grains.
I did not shoot for accuracy but all the bullets impacted 4-6” low at 25 yards.

Hope this helps you!

Thanx for sharing this data......

 

[Nevada Ed]

I have actually made up loads in 357Magnum seated flush 1150fps chronographed and shot into ballistics gel. Even at that speed they still held together but a bit of over penetration at 19-23inches for 5shots.

When I started out I used my 686 6" for testing to get a feel of what the deep seated bullets would do.

I got Red Dot to do 1080 fps, Green Dot to do 1087 fps and Unique managed 1101 fps.

I have some OAL 1.18 & 1.43" loads to test with Unique and 2400 powder in the 686 and then will follow up with the little J frame if the numbers and fps look ok.

Hoping to have this puzzle put together soon, with a load that will be very close to a Federal factory load with safe pressures, with pictures.

 

[ddixie884]

I'll be looking forward to your data. I think perfect performance would be just over 850 to 900fps. Seems to me most snub loads are just barely fast enough to get expansion. The difference in FBI loads that expand well and those that don't is whether they break 850fps. This is not an FBI load but 850 still sticks in my mind for expansion......

 

[Nevada Ed]

This new bullet from a 2" barrel will expand under 800 fps but not 5 out of 5.......
testers feel that it needs at least 805 fps out of your snub nose to work correctly.

824-831 fps is a good speed for this bullet to work in a J frame snub nose and keep recoil down for faster follow up shots, if needed.

I think of this load as something for those that have problems with recoil or hand/muscle/grip problems and still have a load that will work for SD in a light weight revolver.

If I want faster fps in a load for the J frame, I go to the 135gr Gold Dot or a 125gr JHP but it will have more recoil.

This load is set up to be more like the old 125 gr Nycad load, in my mind........ which did work

Note;
Federal's 890fps is from a 4" tube........

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Per FEDERAL the factory 130gr HST 38 Special +P is 229 ft/lbs @ 890 fps.

Other Factory data:
Speer 125gr GDHP 38 Special +P is 248 @ 945
Speer 135gr GDHP (Short Barrel) 38 Special +P is 222 @ 860 (?)
Remington 125gr Bonded JHP +P is 264 @ 975
Hornady 125gr XTP (non +P) is 225 @ 900

& THEN there's...
Buffalo Bore 125gr JHP (for short barrels) with 225 @ 900
Buffalo Bore 125gr LV JHP +P with 439 @ 1,258 (!)

Per HODGDONS for us reloaders...

Hornady 125gr XTP (using 6.3gr of CFE-Pistol) delivers 1,133 fps
Hornady 125gr XTP +P (using 6.4gr of the same CFE-Pistol) ups it to 1,199 (1/10th grain?)

For 357 Magnum reloading we range from 6.9gr @1,340fps to 8.0gr @1,480fps for that same 125gr XTP bullet and CFE-Pistol...

Factory 357 Magnum numbers are 624 lbs/ft @ 1,500fps for the 125gr XTP.

So... What's the point?

Don't often hear too much bad about that ol' 125gr XTP: factory or reloaded.
Nevada Ed likes that 135gr Short Barrel GDHP. It also has the least amount of energy and velocity of all the examples here.
That +P Buffalo Bore sure seems pretty hot to me!

I'd opine that heading (aiming?) for an honest 875-890fps with the 130gr HST would duplicate the factory design, but for a whole lot less than a $ a bullet.

Cheers!

P.S. I didn't get into test barrel length or claimed factory numbers: drew them from Ballistics 101, BTW.

 

[Nevada Ed]

"Nevada Ed likes that 135gr Short Barrel GDHP. It also has the least amount of energy and velocity of all the examples here".......


I have loaded lots of 38 bullet weights to try for a good SD load.
The little 110 JHP with Green Dot at 950 fps has 4.01 ft/lbs of recoil in my snub nose revolver.
A 158 Lwc with Red Dot at 740 fps has a R. of 4.28, while a light +P 125gr JHP with Unique does 880 fps and carries 4.33 ft/lbs.
The factory 135 is rated at 862 fps and gets up to R 4.78 with a full blown 158 FBI load with Unique hitting 861 fps with a big 5.94 ft/lbs in my J frame.

If I can get the little 130 HST out of my 2" at around 832 fps......
it will only have 3.88 ft/lbs of recoil and around 200 ft/lbs of ME.

I like the 125gr as a SD bullet, just that I did have one Factory 125 Gold Dot not even start to open up, that was fired out of my J frame into water jugs at ten feet.
The old style Rem/Win have jacket lead tip design, worked a lot better, do to their design.

As mentioned in the past........
I have no problem with recoil, however there are other shooters in my family that don't like it or care for it and would
prefer a load with minimum recoil that will work if needed, in their light weight J frame revolvers.

One reason, that I am testing out this bullet style and hoping to get it dialed into factory spec's, to see if it will work for them, for practice, while they use the factory stuff for carry.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Test number four, but with the 686 6" revolver to check out fps
with loads that were not on the books.
Since it was a L frame and not my J frame, I left all the data on the picture, since it is safe in this weapon, however, some of the loads are VERY light and should not be used for SD due to low ft/lbs of energy.

I found it interesting that the longer OAL was a little more accurate than the factory loadings.......
but to be close to a 2" factory load, I am thinking that 970fps is needed out of the 6" tube to where the 2" reduction in fps might come into play for a testing data?

Note;
798fps is the minimum out of a 2" !!!

Next test will be out of the J frame.
Hang in there.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I don't see anything there that isn't easily "minute of bad guy"...! Especially with pulled/seconds(?) bullets. Anything over 900fps ought to open up with this JHPWC bullet. Velocity-wise it's good to recognize that a 2" barrel is not a 6" barrel.

How do you generate your recoil numbers, Ed?

Cheers!

 

[Nevada Ed]

I don't see anything there that isn't easily "minute of bad guy"...! Especially with pulled/seconds(?) bullets. Anything over 900fps ought to open up with this JHPWC bullet. Velocity-wise it's good to recognize that a 2" barrel is not a 6" barrel.

How do you generate your recoil numbers, Ed?

Cheers!

900fps is great if you can get those numbers with a JHP..........
and the copper jacket is not to thick/heavy to let the bullet expand and mushroom.

Not always possible out of a 1 7/8" barrel, though.

I had a program years ago that gave me shotgun pellet energy and also bullet with recoil, energy, time to target, drop etc.etc. by Lowery out of the N/W on a CD but it no longer works on my PC.
The second internet program that worked also died and faded away.............

Today the data for recoil out there is not the best and I don't use it, since it does not match my old data, that is spot on......
but what a .5 lb/ft recoil here or there, you just got to suck it up and go with it, no matter what the ammo does.

If it works, use it.