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Can anyone tell me how well 39-2 series pistols handle the heavy loads? And which is best?
147 grain and my 39-2
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David Sinko
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I don't have a 39-2 but I can tell you that most of the 147 gr. 9mm loadings are somewhat underpowered by design, which seems to be a fad. If anything, they might shoot a bit high but otherwise you shouldn't have any trouble with them. I think I have seen two commercial loadings that actually have respectable velocity and I expect that these would be considerably more expensive if you find them.
Dave Sinko
Dave Sinko
Steve C
Member
I have shot several different types of 147gr ammunition in my 9's and they shoot fine even in older Walther P1's. The heavier 147gr bullet at a velocity of 950 to 1,000 fps offers only slightly heavier recoil energy to the pistol so if your model 39 hasn't had its recoil spring replace in many years its probably a good small investment to obtain a new fresh one from Wolf at Wolff Gunsprings - Firearm Springs for Semi-Auto Pistols, Revolvers, Rifles, & Shotguns as they weaken with use over time.
S&WIowegan
US Veteran
I handload 147gr. truncated cone 9mm ammo. They are generally speaking much milder in noise and recoil....very pleasant to shoot.
The downside is they are less accurate in both my XDm and 1911 with a Nowlin barrel. The accuracy issue relates(I think) to low speed....950fps....and heavy bullet not stabilizing as well.
The downside is they are less accurate in both my XDm and 1911 with a Nowlin barrel. The accuracy issue relates(I think) to low speed....950fps....and heavy bullet not stabilizing as well.
Then it's a "fad" that's lasted more than 20 years.....
Despite gun magazine tales, and discredited "experts" opinions to the contrary, the "underpowered" 147 grain 9mm's continue to be among the top performers, and are still the 9mm round of choice for many law enforcement agencies that actually study wound ballistics.
Tuna1
Member
The fad goes back as far as Viet Nam. The 147 gr bullet was designed for use in a surpressed S&W used by the Navy Seals and called a hush puppy if I remember right. It was to take out sentrys and dogs without any noise. The slide could be locked in place so it would not move when the pistol was fired. The heavier round was sub sonic so it was surpressed very well. The round had no other purpose then being used in surpressed weapons. It is not a good defense or police round.
Fortunately, the hundreds of people shot with them by LAPD, LASO, San Diego PD, Sacramento PD, etc, etc., etc., over the last 20 years, weren't privy to your opinion......
Amen. And lots of other thugs in lots of other places both here and, in the past several years, outside the US.
The Sarge
Member
+i on Elmer's comments. Contrary to what gun rag writers and a few other "experts" have said, the 9mm 147gr loading is very effective and works under various conditions. It is soft shooting and highly accurate. Ask any major ammo manufacturer sales rep or LE supplier on a national level what 9mm loading they sell the most of to police departments. Their response will be 147gr by far. If it didn't work on the street we wouldn't use it. Bill
Steve C
Member
Commercial 147gr 9mm is not +P so there is no problem shooting it in your 39. There is some LEO only ammo that is 147gr and +P but you have to go out of your way to find it for purchase by civilians.
David Sinko
Member
The fad is the ridiculously underpowered loadings we see in the majority of 147 gr. 9mm ammo. Why is this? Do most people who choose the 9mm for personal protection carry suppressed fully automatic weapons? No? Then why do we see so much underpowered ammo in 9mm, the 147 gr. bullets in particular? Most 147 gr. bullets are kept to velocities of less than 1000 FPS when in fact they can get about 200 FPS more from most modern service grade semiautomatic pistols. I do not dispute the effectiveness of heavy bullets, but it's about time more manufacturers started loading the better 147 gr. bonded hollowpoint bullets to the cartridge's fullest potential.
Dave Sinko
Dave Sinko
Velocity is not everything.
Bullet technology is such today, that good terminal performance can be achieved with a 147 grain at 900-975 fps. After shooting quite a few of them into gel, I didn't see enough difference to justify any recoil or accelerated wear penalty. Have you seen testing that would lead you to a different conclusion?
Bonded pistol bullets excel through barriers such as automotive window glass. They often aren't the best performer in bare gel. Only you can decide what your needs are.
FMJ's aren't good choices in anything but the tiny calibers, (.25, .32), only because expanding bullets in those tend to have inadequate penetration.
David Sinko
Member
Well, I have seen people and dogs shot with the expensive, hi-tech Gold Dot that expands wonderfully and then falls out of the entrance wound because THE BULLET DOESN'T HAVE ENOUGH VELOCITY AND THEREFORE FAILS TO ADEQUATELY PENETRATE. If I'm seeing this out on the street then others are seeing it too and either can't figure out what's happening or just don't care. If I must carry some version of watered down ammo that lacks velocity, then I'll take the FMJ flat point every time because at least I know it should penetrate.
Dave Sinko
Dave Sinko
The Sarge
Member
Sheer velocity does not determine penetration as opposed to bullet weight, expansion rate, and momentum. I have never known Speer Gold Dot rounds in recognized combat calibers to fail adequate penetration in real world shootings. The exception is the Gold Dot115gr 9mm +P+.
Concerning FMJ stopping and killing people, handguns are weak weapons as compared to rifles. There are bad guys out there that simply will not stop when shot multiple times and will try to take you with them. Alcohol, drugs and mindset all can effect this. When a firearm is deployed in self defense the shots are fired to stop the action and not to kill. A quality, controlled expansion round will be much more efficient in stopping an attacker than a FMJ bullet. Bill
Concerning FMJ stopping and killing people, handguns are weak weapons as compared to rifles. There are bad guys out there that simply will not stop when shot multiple times and will try to take you with them. Alcohol, drugs and mindset all can effect this. When a firearm is deployed in self defense the shots are fired to stop the action and not to kill. A quality, controlled expansion round will be much more efficient in stopping an attacker than a FMJ bullet. Bill
safearm
US Veteran
A 39-2 will handle +P far longer than you will. Illinois State Police carried the Model 39 in various models for over 30 years and used +P+ ammo without any adverse effects.
Today's 147 grain loads are much better than the loads of 20 years ago, which everyone seems to be discussing. In fact, Winchester's Ranger-T 147 grain load is one of the best defense loads on the market.
Interesting. Where are you seeing all these people and dogs shot with Gold Dot and it "falls out of the entrance wound"?
This is earth shattering news. I'd love to get that data. At least point me to an agency. I have the credentials and connections to get the reports on it.
Even the 115 grain +P+ does 10 1/2" in bare gel and 15"-16" after heavy clothing. But yes, the 124 and 147 do better.
CraigJ
Member
39-2 +P
FWIW, I have some old Federal 95 grain flat point ammo rated at 1400 fps issued by the ISP in the late 70's and early 80's. They shot qualification with this load and I got to watch some of the better shots for the ISP in an informal practice at 50 yards. Those guys did quite well. And I have about 8 of those rounds which I kept. The one gunfight report from the involved trooper stated his shot hit the bicep area and traveled up the arm to the chest cavity.
CraigJ
PS: I still have a box of the Winchester 115 +P+ that the ISP used!
FWIW, I have some old Federal 95 grain flat point ammo rated at 1400 fps issued by the ISP in the late 70's and early 80's. They shot qualification with this load and I got to watch some of the better shots for the ISP in an informal practice at 50 yards. Those guys did quite well. And I have about 8 of those rounds which I kept. The one gunfight report from the involved trooper stated his shot hit the bicep area and traveled up the arm to the chest cavity.
CraigJ
PS: I still have a box of the Winchester 115 +P+ that the ISP used!
sigp220.45
US Veteran
I like the 147 grain 9mm. My agency has issued it for 20 years without a failure of any kind that I'm aware of. I read all the shooting reports, so I'm pretty sure
A friend of mine shot a guy with an early generation 147 grain Hydra-Shok. The bullet went through a car windshield and hit the bad guy in the upper lip. This weak, useless round then plowed through the gent's face and into his brain, killing him instantly.
One thing the 147s do is penetrate. I would be very skeptical of a report of a 147 grain 9mm falling out of an entrance wound.
I remember a shooting involving the Hazelton PD (not sure what state) which generated a lot of misinformation regarding some .40 cal rounds which supposedly only penetrated an inch. I've read the followup report of that shooting where it was determined the rounds only an inch under the skin had actually penetrated from the other side of the body.
The funny thing about the 9mm 147 is that if you take that same bullet, launch it at the same velocity, but load it in a .38 Special case headstamped +P+ it becomes the hammer of Thor, suitable for use only in N-frame Smith and Thompson Contenders!
A friend of mine shot a guy with an early generation 147 grain Hydra-Shok. The bullet went through a car windshield and hit the bad guy in the upper lip. This weak, useless round then plowed through the gent's face and into his brain, killing him instantly.
One thing the 147s do is penetrate. I would be very skeptical of a report of a 147 grain 9mm falling out of an entrance wound.
I remember a shooting involving the Hazelton PD (not sure what state) which generated a lot of misinformation regarding some .40 cal rounds which supposedly only penetrated an inch. I've read the followup report of that shooting where it was determined the rounds only an inch under the skin had actually penetrated from the other side of the body.
The funny thing about the 9mm 147 is that if you take that same bullet, launch it at the same velocity, but load it in a .38 Special case headstamped +P+ it becomes the hammer of Thor, suitable for use only in N-frame Smith and Thompson Contenders!
madforstuff
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HELP called s&w said if ammo boxs dosen't have SIM marking on it i can not use? went to gun show this weekend picked up 3 S&W lnib, s&w 908,s&w 910 and a 4043 40cal.and ammo 2 boxs of winchester 9mm luger white box 147gr jhp ,2 boxs of real black talons 9mm 147gr sxt, can i shoot them in my 908, 910 ?
