158 gr. LRN is too long for my 627!

[David Sinko]

I just traded a couple of bags of lead shot to a local bullet caster for a good quantity of .357" 158 gr. LRN. The bullets are excellent quality and while most will be loaded in .38 Special, I loaded some in .357 Magnum brass with a charge of 2400 as "Revolver Major" match loads. I dropped a loaded .357 moonclip into the cylinder and it would not close. Strange. No high primers. No fouled chambers. No bulged brass. So why wouldn't the cylinder close? Then I see it... The bullets are sticking out past the cylinder! How can this be? Who cuts a mold for a bullet that won't fit into a .357 Magnum cylinder? I then checked them in the cylinder of my Model 66 and they did fit, but just barely. Why is the cylinder of the 627 so short?

Next I loaded one with the bullet seated deeper and crimped over the front driving band. Now it fits into the 627, but the OAL is almost the same as a .38 Special with the bullet crimped normally. So what's the better alternative when loading with 2400? Seat the bullet deep into the .357 Magnum brass or seat it to normal depth in the .38 Special? Which will produce the lower pressure? Does it even matter?

Dave Sinko

 

[Maximumbob54]

Is the cylinder shorter due to being cut for moon clips?

 

[David Sinko]

No. The cartridge still headspaces on the outside edge of the cylinder on the rim.

Dave Sinko

 

[Maximumbob54]

Can you measure one and make sure it is a 158 and not a 180 or greater? They don't look like it but I'm sure there is some reasonable explanation that will be a forehead smacker when you get it.

 

[David Sinko]

They average 159 grs. and are sized .358". For some reason there is a lot of bullet sticking out of the case compared to every other 158 gr. cast bullet that I have ever used. Usually when the bullet is designed so that more is out of the case, the purpose is to increase powder capacity for more power, no? That doesn't seem to work in this instance. Or is it because the cylinder of the 627 is too short for some reason? I don't have any other N, J or L Frame .357 Magnum revolvers to compare cylinder length.

Dave Sinko

 

[Maximumbob54]

I will measure some cylinder lengths when I go home. I am at a loss on this one. Maybe these are like the "Ruger only" type loads. I would think seating them that deep might cause higher pressures if that much more mass is lower in the brass.

 

[ILLWIND]

I have had that problem, also. None of my mod 27's or 28's will chamber them. I cast bullets, 158RN being one of them. I noticed they would stick out the end of the chamber after I loaded several hundred of them. Bummer. I ended up using a coarse rasp to shave a 1/16th inch or so off the end of the bullet. Not very professional, but it was better than pulling all and re-reloading them. I now seat them deeper.

 

[Skip Sackett]

This is why the original 357Mag load crimped over the ogive or last driving band of the bullet.

Dave, and I am just being silly here, that is why there is a MAXIMUM OAL associated with the cartridge!

Do they measure over the 1.610" or whatever is maximum for a 357Mag?

If so, seat them deeper and crimp over the last driving band. Remember to lower your charge and work up again though!

Also, this is why there was an adaptation made to Elmer's bullet for the 38spl. Phil Sharpe made a shorter nose SWC design that would fit in an "N" frame's cylinder. Common to that frame.

 

[OFT II]

What is the overall length?

The cylinder on K frame 357s is longer than the cylinder is on N frame 357s.

 

[Rule3]

What is the length of just the bullet??

I have a 327 and shoot 158 LSWC and LRN out of it.

 

[Snapping Twig]

FWIW, the cylinder of an N frame is shorter than the cylinder of an L frame.

Go figure, but there it is.

So, this means that bullets that fit a 586/686 can be too long for a 27/28.

Traditionally heavy bullets for a 27 are crimped just past the front driving band. Skeeter and Elmer wrote about it.

If you have a chrono, you can seat the bullets deeper and reduce the powder charge to accommodate the reduced volume and alleviate the worry of pressure excesses.

 

[David Sinko]

The length of the bullet alone is 0.695". The loaded .357 Magnum cartridge is 1.678". My RCBS Cast Bullet Manual Number 1 does not list an OAL for any loaded .357 Magnum cartridge. My Hornady Handbook does list a maximum OAL as 1.590". I must admit I have never given a bother to the OAL of ANY .357 Magnum cartridge that I have ever loaded. Every bullet I have ever loaded has a crimp groove or cannelure and I just seat accordingly. For quite a few years that Model 66 was the only .357 Magnum revolver I owned and I was never a big fan of the cartridge due to the severe recoil and muzzle blast. But then they invented the 8 shot N Frame and suddenly I became more interested.

I will have to ask the guy who cast these what mold he used. I know he has a lot of ancient equipment. He is an elderly gentleman and has cast more in any given year than I will in my entire life. I can't find a bullet that looks like this in any of my catalogs. Maybe it's obsolete? It's a good thing I loaded only eight of these. Next time I will take nothing for granted.

Dave Sinko

 

[Maximumbob54]

Cylinder length on my M28 = 1.60

Cylinder length on my M19-4 = 1.67

I don't have an L frame to check. That's pretty crazy though. I wonder why they did that???

 

[FloridaFlier]

My Lyman 49th edition and my Speer Reloading Manual both show the maximum COAL of 1.590". Your buddy may have used a modified die from something else. I wouldn't want to even be real close to the maximum as stout recoil has been known to unseat unfired rounds, rendering the gun useless.

 

[Rule3]

I believe you have some "mutant" bullets

I have two round nose bullets from Missouri Bullets.

The first is a 158 gr RN "Ranger" made for tube magazines on lever actions but I also use it in my 327, 686. it is .638 long

The second is a a soft Cowboy action 158 gr Rn and it is .684 I use this in my M 67 38 but also light loads in the 357 Mags special.

I did not dig out the guns to measure cylinders, I believe it's your bullets. Just looking at the small picture the nose appears much longer than any I have.

I don not even measure my OAL. I just crimp at the groove and go.

 

[David Sinko]

A quick glance through my copy of Elmer's "Sixguns" does not turn up anything conclusive. I don't see a picture of anything that has so much bullet up front and a single lube groove. There are references to Ideal and Belding & Mull molds, which I presume are long obsolete. But that doesn't mean that somebody can't still be using them. I also have Gun Notes Volumes I and II, but he does not discuss the .357 Magnum in depth. The guy who cast these will be shooting trap tomorrow night, and I'm fortunate in that I live only four minutes from my range. If I have time I'll stop by and ask him about this.

Dave Sinko

 

[lebomm]

I take it this not the Lyman #358311 ?

Larry

 

[Alk8944]

From the earliest S&W Hand Ejector revolvers, both K&N Frame, the standard cylinder length was a nominal 1 9/16". This actually began with the 3rd Model Double Action hinged frame revolvers chambered for .38-40 and .44-40. Note, on the recessed guns the depth of the recess is not included.

.357 Magnum was designed to fit the existing 1 9/16" cylinder. I am not aware of any factory .357 Magnum ammunition that was ever loaded with 158 gr. RN bullets. SAAMI established COAL at 1.610" as that will fit any .357 Magnum caliber revolver.

The simple story is you are trying to load bullets that were not designed for the cartridge, and they are too long for the cylinder, not the cylinder that is too short! Seat them to 1.610" and they will work fine.

There were no cylinders longer than 1 9/16" until the .38 M&P "Airweight" (later Model 12) came along in the early 1950s. When the .357 "Combat Magnum" (later Model 19) the longer cylinder of the Airweight M&P was used.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Page 43 of this publication by SAAMI has the maximum cartridge length specified by them:

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

It doesn't matter what the other folks say in their publications and they should have the disclaimer about the "N" frames anyway.

I believe that that is another reason that most of the old timers used a SWC design. Flat meplat to get the most out of the cartridge/firearm combination.

 

[H Richard]

Keep in mind that when you seat the bullet deeper, you may have to alter your load, as the less internal space will increase the pressure when the round go es off. If you are loading at max now, when you seat the bullet deeper you may be exceeding pressure limits.