I was also going to ask if rechambering to 2 3/4” is feasible. It seems like it would be an easy thing to do, but that’s just me guessing.
16 gauge 21/2" shotgun shells
- Thread starter babyloui
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DWalt
Member
Certainly it can be done, but it is not really needed, provided that fired longer cases will clear the shotgun's ejection port, if the shotgun has one.
Model 12 shooter /collector. I have had a few M-12 guns over the years Happen to have a 1st year 12 ga and it is 2 3/4 in. Have a 2nd year 20 with 2 1/2 inch chamber. I took a brake hone took the bbl off and literally polished forward end of the chamber area. Works fine. all early 16s were pretty much 2 9/16 inch. The gun with the biggest problem shooting 2 3/4 shells was the Browning auto 5. I used to do the conversion of the 2 9/16 Brownings. Not a real hard thing to do. took a couple hours to do right. Main problem with Browning was the ejection port/bbl extension area. Surprisingly I had a post war Win 21 Pigeon grade 16 ga 2 bbl set and both were 2 3/4 inch chambered. I don't know when Win started making 2 3/4 in 16 ga ammo.. Not many know 28 ga was 2 7/8 inch until the 1960s or so
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DWalt
Member
Some years ago, I personally saw a gunsmith lengthen a shotgun chamber. Entirely a manual operation, not much to it. He just put a reamer into the chamber and turned it, took just a few minutes. But either buying or renting a chamber reamer is probably a little expensive for a DIY home gunsmith. If a hone works, and you believe chamber lengthening is needed (I do not), that would be the less expensive way to go. Lengthening an ejection port is more of a professional job, and I have not attempted to do that. It would probably take more than using a Dremel tool.
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In general and saying this because two of my hunting buddies have 16 gauge SG's and always experiencing difficulties in acquiring their preferred ammo, after finding a source that sells what you want - stock up!
While 16 gauge is a great and capable size shell and many of the guns built for them are really nice as well, the gauge itself is rapidly on its way to become obsolete. The two common shells from what I see today are #1) 12 Ga. and #2) 20 Ga. My crystal ball tells me today it is more important than ever that ammo is readily available and in the choices you want for specific needs. Unfortunately 16 Ga shells are just hard to find in the brand and size you want so that's why I'm saying stock up when you do find them.
While 16 gauge is a great and capable size shell and many of the guns built for them are really nice as well, the gauge itself is rapidly on its way to become obsolete. The two common shells from what I see today are #1) 12 Ga. and #2) 20 Ga. My crystal ball tells me today it is more important than ever that ammo is readily available and in the choices you want for specific needs. Unfortunately 16 Ga shells are just hard to find in the brand and size you want so that's why I'm saying stock up when you do find them.
DWalt
Member
The first shotgun I could actually call my own was a Sears Roebuck 16 gauge bolt action with a tubular underbarrel magazine I got as a Christmas present. Nothing really wrong with it, but I didn't like its looks or its gauge. I doubt I put more than a few boxes of shells through it before I traded it off for something else. So long ago I don't remember much else about it.
Loading the short shells is waste of time in my opinion. Even with the adapters they aren't reliable ad normal ammo they take different components. Mostly wads...but many here have never loaded card and fillers. They take a lot more care. The loader has to be adapted to short shells..cases are a fair bit harder to find and they aren't really allowed for hunting in most states unless you plug the gun to hold 3. How many will you really need? I did it with paper shells in the 50s early 60s..even had a shell cutter made for trimming papers back then. Oh and most shells now days you need to find 11 GA card and fillers about like for brass cases. Alcan bought out by S&W in the 70s used to sell them as did Herter's
AJ
US Veteran
Let the board know how it works for you.
The Win21 in 16ga was always 2 3/4" as chambered from the start of that offering as far as I can recall. The Model itself came around in the mid 30's and that's when Win started marking 2 3/4" chambers on the M12.
There were a very few M21 made and marked as 3" chambers.
'Short Chambered' 16ga shotguns are generally a 2 9/16" chamber. That if they are European made. They have a 65mm chamber length and that was standard before WW2.
USA mfgs also used short chambers (shorter than 2 3/4"0 very often on the 16 and 20gauges.
You can find 2 1/2 and 2 9/16" lengths.
Measuring them is kind of difficult at times as the end of the chamber itself and the beginning of the Forcing Cone just blend into the same plain. A sharp definitive point betw the end of the chamber and the beginning of the cone is really not there on most.
So a simple 1/6" of an inch can be added or lost depending on who does the measurement and how it is done.
Add to that that some of the US mfg's purposely cut the chambers of their guns a bit 'short' of the spec that they were stated to be.
The amt varied by mfgr, but cutting them about 1/8" short was common.
Remington, Parker, AH Fox and others did this. There are Factory correspondence notes and specs related to this practice. The idea was that the patterning results were improved and no ill effects were seen (pressure spikes).
Take into consideration that the shells of the time were paper hulls, usually roll crimped. The wads were hard cardboard over powder with fiber wad filler and no plastic or other protective sleeve around the shot.
Powder was much different that what were use to day. But some of the published pressures of that era were quite high. How they figured that I don't know.
I am one that thinks shooting the correct (length) shot shell in the chamber length of the gun is the best way to go.
Lengthening a chamber can be as simple as using a chambering reamer by hand. BUT be wary of the bbl wall thickness where you are removing the extra material from PLUS include the fact that most chamber reamers
will also be cutting a new Forcing Cone for you.
A modern Forcing Cone will be quite a bit longer and of a more gentle angle than the old style abrupt steep style needed for the card&fiber wads.
That means more metal ahead of the lengthened chamber again will be removed.
This is all right in the spot where the pressure is the highest when the cartridge fires.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the Smaller the Bore/Gauge,,the Higher the chamber pressures are.
The big 10 gauge and the 12ga can be easily hand loaded down in the 6000psi range and even below that and still give you 1200fps.
There are a few 16ga loads that can get you down around 7000psi but not many. They are usually in the 8000+psi range when handloaded for vintage guns.
20ga even higher.
It's the same with commercially loaded rounds. The little .410 beats them all in the chamber pressure challenge.
..and Velocity readings have little to do with what the chamber pressure of the load is.
You can have 1200fps 12ga loads that are 6000psi or the same 1200FPS that are generating 10,500psi.
It's all in the components.
PSI is what the strain gauges say when the loads are actually tested.
Not what someone thinks they may be by looking at powder & primer burn speed and brisance charts.
Converting the A5 16ga 2 9/16" cham gun to a 2 3/4" is more than a rechamber and dremeling out the front edge of the port.
It involves conversion work on the bbl so as to allow it to move forward from it's present position. Work on the ejector to convert to a sliding from a static part. Opening the port at both ends, etc.
Browning Arms, USA used to offer the service for a time.
There were a very few M21 made and marked as 3" chambers.
'Short Chambered' 16ga shotguns are generally a 2 9/16" chamber. That if they are European made. They have a 65mm chamber length and that was standard before WW2.
USA mfgs also used short chambers (shorter than 2 3/4"0 very often on the 16 and 20gauges.
You can find 2 1/2 and 2 9/16" lengths.
Measuring them is kind of difficult at times as the end of the chamber itself and the beginning of the Forcing Cone just blend into the same plain. A sharp definitive point betw the end of the chamber and the beginning of the cone is really not there on most.
So a simple 1/6" of an inch can be added or lost depending on who does the measurement and how it is done.
Add to that that some of the US mfg's purposely cut the chambers of their guns a bit 'short' of the spec that they were stated to be.
The amt varied by mfgr, but cutting them about 1/8" short was common.
Remington, Parker, AH Fox and others did this. There are Factory correspondence notes and specs related to this practice. The idea was that the patterning results were improved and no ill effects were seen (pressure spikes).
Take into consideration that the shells of the time were paper hulls, usually roll crimped. The wads were hard cardboard over powder with fiber wad filler and no plastic or other protective sleeve around the shot.
Powder was much different that what were use to day. But some of the published pressures of that era were quite high. How they figured that I don't know.
I am one that thinks shooting the correct (length) shot shell in the chamber length of the gun is the best way to go.
Lengthening a chamber can be as simple as using a chambering reamer by hand. BUT be wary of the bbl wall thickness where you are removing the extra material from PLUS include the fact that most chamber reamers
will also be cutting a new Forcing Cone for you.
A modern Forcing Cone will be quite a bit longer and of a more gentle angle than the old style abrupt steep style needed for the card&fiber wads.
That means more metal ahead of the lengthened chamber again will be removed.
This is all right in the spot where the pressure is the highest when the cartridge fires.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the Smaller the Bore/Gauge,,the Higher the chamber pressures are.
The big 10 gauge and the 12ga can be easily hand loaded down in the 6000psi range and even below that and still give you 1200fps.
There are a few 16ga loads that can get you down around 7000psi but not many. They are usually in the 8000+psi range when handloaded for vintage guns.
20ga even higher.
It's the same with commercially loaded rounds. The little .410 beats them all in the chamber pressure challenge.
..and Velocity readings have little to do with what the chamber pressure of the load is.
You can have 1200fps 12ga loads that are 6000psi or the same 1200FPS that are generating 10,500psi.
It's all in the components.
PSI is what the strain gauges say when the loads are actually tested.
Not what someone thinks they may be by looking at powder & primer burn speed and brisance charts.
Converting the A5 16ga 2 9/16" cham gun to a 2 3/4" is more than a rechamber and dremeling out the front edge of the port.
It involves conversion work on the bbl so as to allow it to move forward from it's present position. Work on the ejector to convert to a sliding from a static part. Opening the port at both ends, etc.
Browning Arms, USA used to offer the service for a time.
Murdock
Member
The 16 gauge will never die. Lke the .44 Special, it is a connesieur's cartridge and a playground for the handloader.
RST was hit hard during the last ammo panic and had difficulty maintaining nventory due to components shortages. They are quite personable and will answer questions on the phone. I call them every month or so to follow up on shells for my 2-1/2 inch Auto 5. The powder supplier they used no longer has the powder RST used to keep pressures low in my 97-year old Auto 5, and they are currently doing R&D to develop loads strong enough to function the gun while keepig pressure low with a new powder.
If you really want to go down the rabbit hole go to 16ga.com.
Google Mike Orlen, a gunsmith in Amherst, Mass. He will lengthen forcing cones and return your barrel/barrels in a week or so. He is also able to gauge thickness of the barrel steel if there is any concern about pressure. As mentioned somewhere above, the greater pressure of the 2-3/4 inch shells is of minimal concern. Rather, the long shells in short chambers increase felt recoil, which is concern for 100-year-old wood stocks.
Good luck.
And jeepers, after all this short chambered 16-gauge discussion, nobody has posted any vintage 16 gauge photos. For shame!
A Sempert-Kreighoff driling, an Auto 5, an LC Smith Featherweight, and a killer ESS gundog.
RST was hit hard during the last ammo panic and had difficulty maintaining nventory due to components shortages. They are quite personable and will answer questions on the phone. I call them every month or so to follow up on shells for my 2-1/2 inch Auto 5. The powder supplier they used no longer has the powder RST used to keep pressures low in my 97-year old Auto 5, and they are currently doing R&D to develop loads strong enough to function the gun while keepig pressure low with a new powder.
If you really want to go down the rabbit hole go to 16ga.com.
Google Mike Orlen, a gunsmith in Amherst, Mass. He will lengthen forcing cones and return your barrel/barrels in a week or so. He is also able to gauge thickness of the barrel steel if there is any concern about pressure. As mentioned somewhere above, the greater pressure of the 2-3/4 inch shells is of minimal concern. Rather, the long shells in short chambers increase felt recoil, which is concern for 100-year-old wood stocks.
Good luck.
And jeepers, after all this short chambered 16-gauge discussion, nobody has posted any vintage 16 gauge photos. For shame!
A Sempert-Kreighoff driling, an Auto 5, an LC Smith Featherweight, and a killer ESS gundog.
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