19-3 PPC revolver came home: any tips?

[bczrx]

Hello All,

I finally got my 19-3 PPC revolver home on Friday, and hit the range today. I need to zero the sights for my eyes, and figure some stuff out.

I have had some great conversations on the forum [and via email] with board members about Cheshire & Perez gunshop, who made this revolver. However, PLEASE- share anything you think could be useful.

IF you have a Cheshire & Perez PPC revolver, can you [some day] look under the grips and in the crane area to see if you have a '5th' or '12th' [or another '6th']? I am wondering if that is some tracking for the build number by the C&P gunsmith?

From reading a LOT of posts on PPC revolvers, I 'think' it has an Apex Rifle Company revolver barrel.

• On a few threads, I read that the Apex has 10 lands/grooves, unlike the Douglas Revolver barrels.
• It definitely has 10 lands/grooves.
• However, I don't remember reading how many lands/grooves the Douglas has [I am guessing 5 or 6?- can anyone tell me?]

Did anyone else make a PPC barrel with 10 lands/grooves?

Related to the Apex barrel identification is a question about loads and twist rate.

• I have read that the two most common twist rates were 1-10 or 1-14 [for PPC barrels, unlike factory S&W 1-18.75 or so].
• Were Apex barrels made in both of these twists?
• I have seen more threads reference Apex with 1-10" twist, but don't remember reading any of Apex with 1-14" twist.

From what I read, it seems 1-10" twist is best for 148gr and lighter bullets- correct?

What about as light as 125gr [at target/cowboy load speeds- not high velocity]?​

[I think this is 1-10", but that needs to be properly measured. I tried to count degrees of rotation over internal length of rifling, and adjust for fact internal rifling length is shorter than entire barrel due to feed throat.]


Lastly, a few questions from a couple of the pictures.

• Anyone know what the "6th" refers to? or the other markings?
• What about the other marks [other than serial and assembly numbers]?

Please check out the following pictures and share anything that you can. I am in 'sponge' mode- soaking it all in!

Thank you,

Frame markings?

6th in crane:

6th on frame, as well as F and F4?

Circle B and rounded Triangle J?

 

[StrawHat]

From many years competing in PPC, I can say it was the odd shooter who used anything but 148 grain wad cutters over Bullseye powder, usually 2.7 or 2.8 grains.

I will get my Davis revolver out and measure the twist and count the grooves.

Kevin

 

[bananaman]

Chesire & Perez was a company in California that did conversions for PPC. I had a Model 10 that was converted. It was a 8.75" barrel. Later the barrel length was limited to 6", but not sure. Do a search on them, and you will get more info. Bob

 

[Vtgw938]

PPC Guns Showing Up Everywhere

Good to see these guns showing up and being appreciated. Hollow Base 148 grain wadcutters with 2,7 grains of Bullseye and later 3.1 grains of W231 as I recall. (verify before you load) Generally dead on hold at 7, 15 and 25 yards and base of neck hold at 50 yards. Of course all double-action. Some like me were set up so the tip of the shooting finger contacted the frame before the hammer dropped so you could cycle the action and than squeeze off the last bit with the finger-tip supported so it was just about like single-action.

 

[RWJ]

My Lou Ciamillo-built PPC gun (East coast gunsmith of renown) also had an Apex barrel, and although I have not measured the twist rate, it also shot the old 100gr 3-D DEWC well, at least at 25 yards (1/3 X-ring). I had doubts about its wind-bucking ability at 50yds though, and only shot 148gr HBWC at that yard line. Even the 3-D HBWC would hold sub-x-ring out of that barrel, comparing well to 1/2 x-ring for factory federal.


Those are 24 round Ransom-rest groups, of course. That was a little outside my 10-ring skill set .

 

[gwpercle]

Don't get all overly concerned about the number of lands , grooves and twist rates ... you might not be able to buy factory 148 gr. HBWC ammo right now but reloads will do .
2.7 - 2.8 grains Bullseye ... under
Any 140 gr. to 160 gr. home cast wadcutter
That's what they were made for ... Go Shooting !
Very Nice Shooter ... It should make little tiny cluster's and ...
... put a smile on your face!
Gary

 

[Hair Trigger]

For cleaning, find yourself a pair of good chamber and forcing cone scrubbers to remove lead fouling. They look like these; the chamber scrubber has a rubber plug that the knurled nut tightens up on to expand the rubber to increase the scrubbing action. The mesh is brass wire and will not damage the steel of the cylinder or forcing cone, and are replaceable. These both thread to a standard cleaning rod. The forcing cone scrubber is fit from the cylinder side and the rod is inserted down the barrel and attached. The chamber scrubber is placed at the breech end and the rod inserted through the exit end and then threaded and pulled through to the narrowed end and twisted to clean the powder and lead residue ring that collects from shooting .38 cases in the .357 chamber.

 

[bczrx]

Thanks All!

I appreciate all the feedback and support. I admit I shoot semi-autos better than revolvers, but I just LIKE the look of a nice revolver too much.

As far as lands/grooves go, I honestly don't care- as long as they are not worn out. I have micro-groove barrels on Marlins and more traditional [ballard?] grooves cut into others. As long as the rifling twists it and the crown is good, I don't care. The only reason I brought them up is that it seemed the only visual cue that was mentioned to identify if it was an Apex or a Douglas/etc barrel.

The only reason I care about twist rates is because I have a LOT of 125gr TC Lead rounds from Penn Bullets that I have yet to touch. It is a long story, but I kept those rounds as I figured I could use them in something.

I was just wondering if there was a twist rate that would best work for these lighter weight bullets at around 750fps [unloaded, so the speed could change, but these are not for over 900fps, according to website].

Some good tips on loads to use- Thank you!

On the chamber and forcing cone scrubbers- would this be similar to the Lewis Lead Removal system?

Or is this something else that I should get in addition to the Lewis system?

Thanks to all who have commented, and to all who may chose to share your thoughts!

 

[Protocall_Design]

The Douglas barrels have 6 lands and grooves. I don't know of any other ones that have 10.

The bullets need a certain minimum rotational velocity to remain stabilized. The faster they start out, the longer they will be above that minimum. There are 2 ways of getting faster rotation. Those are 1. Faster rifling twist, or 2. Higher forward velocity.

With the bunny fart PPC loads, (2.8 of Bullseye or equivalent 3.2 of WW231/HP38), the bullets are not going forward fast enough to stay stabilized to 50 yards (25 yds. is borderline) in a factory 18.75 twist. That is the reason for going to 1 in 10 or 1 in 14 twist. I prefer the 1 in 10. I think 1 in 12 would be about ideal, but nobody makes that one. I wish all the factory guns were 1 in 12. They would shoot light target loads a lot tighter at the longer distances. Just about anything works out to 10 yards, even no barrel.

The 1 in 10 twist shoots everything in tight groups, including 357 magnum. I have shot 170 gr. Sierra JHPs and 180 gr. Hornady XTPs off sandbags at 100 yd. and was getting around 2" 6 shot groups with 10.5 gr. of Blue Dot in my 1 in 10 6" PPC 686 with a crosshair scope.

I don't know the answer to the markings on the gun.

Edit to add - That IS the Lewis Lead Remover system. It works well.

 

[Vtgw938]

10's and X's

Forgot to add nothing out of the 10 and X ring on the B-27, except at the 50 Yard line!! Speaking of B-27 targets, assuming they still make them you can get centers so you don't have to replace the whole target. When we had our PPC match, we would wallpaper paste full B-27's onto cardboard and shooters would get a new target with cardboard for each stage. That was a lot of pasting.

 

[PPCSHOOTER]

Forgot to add nothing out of the 10 and X ring on the B-27, except at the 50 Yard line!! Speaking of B-27 targets, assuming they still make them you can get centers so you don't have to replace the whole target. When we had our PPC match, we would wallpaper paste full B-27's onto cardboard and shooters would get a new target with cardboard for each stage. That was a lot of pasting.

YEP. GO TO NATIONAL TARGET COMPANY. B27C IS WHAT YOUR LOOKING FOR. JP

 

[Green Frog]

Back in the day, we would shoot our 7 1/2 and 15 yd stages on centers only (B 27C) then used the B 27 at 25 and the reduced target (AKA "the D**n Dwarf") at 25 to simulate the 50. Of course this was a casual, unofficial league. The reason for using centers at the short ranges was that at those ranges, if you couldn't stay in the 8 and 9 ring or better, you weren't shooting anyway!

BTW, we just stapled the targets to cardboard backers that were clipped to the carriers.

Froggie

 

[armorer951]

My old PPC revolver also has an Apex barrel, 10 L&G. Kind of reminds me of my Marlin model 39 "micro-groove" barrel when I look through there!

I don't suppose these are any more accurate than the Douglas barrels I used when constructing these back in the 70's and 80"s.

A lot of fun to shoot with wadcutters.

 

[gwpercle]

Targets ... If you can find a place to download or if you simply make copies of the target of choice ( B27 , B27C or whatever)...
Copy them onto cheap elementry school construction paper .
We have a local store that sells nothing but school supplies , I buy a large pack of the cheapest white , 9" X 12" - 200 sheets for $5.00 and use our office copy machine to copy the target of choice onto the soft construction paper... the reason is the clean holes the bullets cut in the soft paper makes scoring easier .
The paper comes in many colors , light grey and light tan work well .
I'm sure you can order the paper off the interweb too .
If you like to shoot the cost of commercal targets can get high ...
this is poor man's DIY target !
Gary

 

[Hair Trigger]

On the chamber and forcing cone scrubbers- would this be similar to the Lewis Lead Removal system?

Same thing. I've had those so long I forgot what they're called. I bought those particular ones around 1979.

 

[bczrx]

Thanks All,

I got the Lewis system, scrubbed it up, and it became noticeably more accurate.

Thanks for all the insights. This is a fun revolver! [I know- redundant for anything weighing more than 20 oz. Under that, and they can sometimes be more pain than pleasure for me.]

 

[Ruger 13]

To quote Troy Landry…….Choot it!

 

[Moo Moo]

If you want to see more PPC revolvers, check out PPC Revolver Pics

 

[WR Moore]

Back when I used a lot of Douglas barrels and still have a couple of blanks/roughed sections. 6 lands & grooves was their standard product, the day I visited the plant they couldn't find a blank that didn't have less than 0.001 in variation in internal dimensions.

Twists could be 1-10, 1-14, 1-16 or whatever you were willing to pay for (got a .44 blank that's 1-20). The later trend was to 1-10, so probably what you've got.

 

[Jim Watson]

The only reason I care about twist rates is because I have a LOT of 125gr TC Lead rounds from Penn Bullets that I have yet to touch. It is a long story, but I kept those rounds as I figured I could use them in something.

I was just wondering if there was a twist rate that would best work for these lighter weight bullets at around 750fps [unloaded, so the speed could change, but these are not for over 900fps, according to website].

Well, you have the gun, you have the bullets, SHOOT! You can't change the twist anyhow.

A friend and I did some shooting with 125 gr bullets. Sorry, I don't have the load we used but recoil was trifling and they sure speed loaded easier than wadcutters. They seemed not quite as accurate as wadcutters, so we thought to use the 125s at 7 and 15 yards, and 148s at 25 and 50.
The main problem then was sight adjustment. We were making elevation changes routinely, but the 125s did not shoot the same in deflection, either, and that was just too much to keep track of.

There was reportedly a team shooting 110 gr JHPs at the lowest velocity that would not risk sticking a jacket and launching the core.