1905 .32-20
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Muley Gil
US Veteran
That's a 1902-1st change, not a 1905. The serial numbers in the SCSW are approximate.
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Whatever it is, I like it and want one, to go with my Marlin 1894 32-20. Should'a bought one a couple of years ago when they were cheaper.
I can say that about every single one I still want though. I am jealous.
I can say that about every single one I still want though. I am jealous.
Muley Gil
US Veteran
As I stated above, the serial number range is approximate. It is not uncommon at all for a serial number to be out of the published range.
Using the model and change range, an early four screw K frame is a 1902. The trigger guard screw (fifth) defines a 1905.
Now of course, some collectors say that ALL pre WW II round butt revolvers are 1902s, but we won't go there in this thread.
The SCSW is the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, which is in it's 4th edition.
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SCSW= Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson, by Supica and Nahas. 4th edition is the most current. Excellent resource of info for S&W's.
rct269
Member
SCSW is the Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson----currently in its fourth edition, first edition being in 1996. It has become the go-to source for S&W knowledge. Do yourself a favor and remove the Blue Book from your life. It is one of those things which never fails to remind one of fishing tackle. Fishing tackle is thought of by many people as a product made to catch fish. The fact of the matter is it's made to sell to fishermen----fisherwomen too.
As an aside (and regardless of what SCSW or anybody/anything else may have to say), your 4 screw S&W hand ejector revolver contains the 4 screw action (that of the Model of 1902, and previous I believe); and nothing is going to change that.
As another aside, the disassembly/assembly of that action is entirely different than that you may be accustomed to dealing with in 5 screw guns----and that's primarily because of the design/configuration of the trigger return spring. It's rare that I would say this, but you would do well to ignore Dave Chicoine's instructions for the disassembly/assembly; and avail yourself of a special tool designed by Mike Priwer-----one of THE Gurus when it comes to these guns--------and a host of others. Another way of saying that is he's a true student and has forgotten more about these things than most others know.
Let me know if you'd like to simplify your life, and I'll provide you with instructions for the fabrication and use of this tool.
As another aside, it is not probably a reblue; it absolutely, positively is a reblue. And given the absolutely and positively description, you may rest assured it's not a good one.
Ralph Tremaine
As an aside (and regardless of what SCSW or anybody/anything else may have to say), your 4 screw S&W hand ejector revolver contains the 4 screw action (that of the Model of 1902, and previous I believe); and nothing is going to change that.
As another aside, the disassembly/assembly of that action is entirely different than that you may be accustomed to dealing with in 5 screw guns----and that's primarily because of the design/configuration of the trigger return spring. It's rare that I would say this, but you would do well to ignore Dave Chicoine's instructions for the disassembly/assembly; and avail yourself of a special tool designed by Mike Priwer-----one of THE Gurus when it comes to these guns--------and a host of others. Another way of saying that is he's a true student and has forgotten more about these things than most others know.
Let me know if you'd like to simplify your life, and I'll provide you with instructions for the fabrication and use of this tool.
As another aside, it is not probably a reblue; it absolutely, positively is a reblue. And given the absolutely and positively description, you may rest assured it's not a good one.
Ralph Tremaine
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I have a 1902 "no change" 4" 32-20. I believe every spring in it is a flat spring (except the trigger rebound spring). These gun reasonably well with broken springs, but if you take it apart you may not get it back together with out parts replacement!! At 119 years old, I still shoot it but I am gentle with it.
Ivan
Ivan
rct269
Member
The trigger rebound spring is flat too----not flat flat, but flat with a bit of a curve to it---------just to make things interesting. It is interesting when you think about what sort of mind could possibly come up with such a convoluted monkey motion mess, but the good news is it didn't last very long.
Ralph Tremaine
Ralph Tremaine
For the OP, this is a sticky subject. Usually those guns with 4 screws were called 1902, except that some experts state a square butt 4 screw is a 1905 and others opine that a round butt 4 screw gun is a 1905. Probably never get consensus on this topic.
The Model 1902 internal mechanism looks like the image I am showing below that actually appeared through the Model 1905 "No Change" revolver with one exception. The "no change" model was only made for about one year and 10,800 in 38, plus about 4,000 32 Winchesters. The major change from the 1902 to 1905 was the addition of the 5th screw. I do not have an image of the no change model and have never seen the insides of one, but it is my understanding that it had the flat springs along with the addition of the new cylinder stop.
The Model 1902 internal mechanism looks like the image I am showing below that actually appeared through the Model 1905 "No Change" revolver with one exception. The "no change" model was only made for about one year and 10,800 in 38, plus about 4,000 32 Winchesters. The major change from the 1902 to 1905 was the addition of the 5th screw. I do not have an image of the no change model and have never seen the insides of one, but it is my understanding that it had the flat springs along with the addition of the new cylinder stop.
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Wow that's quite a lot of info!
I do have the SCSW books and find them to be somewhat vague
in details sometimes.
Being new here, I'm finding this is the place to be for information!
Also anyone have an idea of value?
Thanks for all your input!!
I do have the SCSW books and find them to be somewhat vague
in details sometimes.
Being new here, I'm finding this is the place to be for information!
Also anyone have an idea of value?
Thanks for all your input!!
There were less than 9,000 of the Model 1902, 1st change revolvers made, but your gun has been incorrectly buffed and reblued, so not much collector value. I would guess that, because of its caliber, it should sell for around $300 as a shooter.
DWalt
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Arguments, sometimes heated, about the differences between SOME M1902s and SOME M1905s have been carried on this forum forever. But generally speaking, it's safe to say that if it's a K-frame made after 1901 and before WWI, M1902 = round butt, and M1905 = square butt. Regardless what screws it has or does not have. After that time, there are no longer any M1902s or M1905s. Just M&Ps. At one time Mike Priwer put together a lengthy and convincing discussion about the differences between the M1902 and M1905, and their various changes, and I will refer any and all arguments over the correct nomenclature to his dissertation.
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Mike Priwer does have compelling points concerning the pre-1910s era guns. His theories are supported by the catalogs of the era that show images of round butt and square butt guns post-1905 as Model 1902 and Model 1905 respectively. By 1919, the model dates were eliminated and the guns were officially called 38 Military & Police Round Butt & Square Butt.
1914 and 1919 catalog pages below:
1914 and 1919 catalog pages below:
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Thanks, Gary, for riding to the rescue! And Thanks, Ralph, for the kind words.
The reality is that the defining feature of the Model of 1902 is the round butt, and the defining feature of the Model of 1905 is the square butt. The butt configuration is the defining, and only, difference between these two Models; they are otherwise identical guns.
The 5th frame screw came after the introduction of the Model of 1905. There are about 4000 .38's made during this 'gap', some 1902's and some 1905's, all with 4-screw frames. The 5th frame screw is an engineering change, not a model definition.
The nomenclature of Neal & Jinks delays the recognition of the Model of 1905 until the introduction of the 5th frame screw, and at that point, drops the Model of 1902. From this point on, everything is a Model of 1905 - regardless of butt configuration. This practice is inconsistent with the catalogs, and results in confusion, which could have been avoided.
After all, when ordering these revolvers, the butt configuration had to be specified - ie, the proper model name. If omitted, the factory wrote back a letter, asking for clarification. I have one such letter, from as late as 1940.
Regards, Mike Priwer
The reality is that the defining feature of the Model of 1902 is the round butt, and the defining feature of the Model of 1905 is the square butt. The butt configuration is the defining, and only, difference between these two Models; they are otherwise identical guns.
The 5th frame screw came after the introduction of the Model of 1905. There are about 4000 .38's made during this 'gap', some 1902's and some 1905's, all with 4-screw frames. The 5th frame screw is an engineering change, not a model definition.
The nomenclature of Neal & Jinks delays the recognition of the Model of 1905 until the introduction of the 5th frame screw, and at that point, drops the Model of 1902. From this point on, everything is a Model of 1905 - regardless of butt configuration. This practice is inconsistent with the catalogs, and results in confusion, which could have been avoided.
After all, when ordering these revolvers, the butt configuration had to be specified - ie, the proper model name. If omitted, the factory wrote back a letter, asking for clarification. I have one such letter, from as late as 1940.
Regards, Mike Priwer
