1905 Date Range?

[dockmurgw]

Greetings from Vermont. I have this sweet (at least I think it is) 1905...I think. I have looked around to try and determine the approximate date of manufacture, but find a lot of conflicting info online, and this appears to be the place to go for the experts. Serial number is 310693, and it has a small star after the number. I almost missed the star, and caught it with the magnifying glass. And its a 38 Special, 5'' barrel. There are 5 separate patent dates, if that matters at all. and finally, a couple of pictures. Can anyone give me a date range?

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! I put it around 1919. Someone will come along and get you closer. And you're correct is a model 1905, change 4, also known as the 38 M&P revolver.

Guy

 

[DWalt]

The closest SN I have listed to your M&P (that is what it should be called as S&W dropped the Model of 1905 nomenclature around 1915) is 3097xx which shipped in 8/19. A convenient SN to remember is 316648, which is where heat treatment of the cylinder began - and that was in 9/19. The star means that you may have a replacement barrel. What other stampings are on the barrel (such as patent information)? The grips are from much later, probably mid-1950s or after. Look on the grip frame, left side under the grip, and see if anything is stamped there, like 11.55, etc. It my well have been factory refinished in the 1950s. I am also a little puzzled by the S&W logo stamping on the sideplate. I would not expect one to be there at that time. Everything suggests work was done at the factory at some later date.

Check the back side of the right grip panel and see if there is a number stamped there. It can be used to date the grips, and it could possibly be consistent with factory service work done in the 1950s or 60s.

 

[S&WsRsweet]

Welcome ,that is truly a sweet revolver congratulations on getting it.

 

[JP@AK]

Yes - 1919, sometime before September (although it could have shipped a bit later).

The star on the butt means it made a trip back to the S&W Service Department sometime later. If you remove the stocks and look on the left side of the grip frame near the toe, you should find a date code in the form x.xx or xx.xx. This will indicate the month and year the SD worked on it.

The stocks on it are much later. They are of the style that was used from 1953 until c. 1967.

 

[dockmurgw]

The closest SN I have listed to your M&P (that is what it should be called as S&W dropped the Model of 1905 nomenclature around 1915) is 3097xx which shipped in 8/19. A convenient SN to remember is 316648, which is where heat treatment of the cylinder began - and that was in 9/19. The star means that you may have a replacement barrel. What other stampings are on the barrel (such as patent information)? The grips are from much later, probably mid-1950s or after. Look on the grip frame, left side under the grip, and see if anything is stamped there, like 11.55, etc. It my well have been factory refinished in the 1950s. I am also a little puzzled by the S&W logo stamping on the sideplate. I would not expect one to be there at that time. Everything suggests work was done at the factory at some later date.

Check the back side of the right grip panel and see if there is a number stamped there. It can be used to date the grips, and it could possibly be consistent with factory service work done in the 1950s or 60s.

Here's what I found: On the back side of the right grip is 188, and under that is 613. There is a number stamped in the bottom of the left side grip frame, looks like a 65.4 on the bottom, and up near the top left there is a 31. Top of barrel has the following patent dates - Oct 8 01, Dec 17 01, Feb 8 08, Sept 14 09, Dec 29 14. Above that is Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass USA Patented. Right side of barrel 38 s&w SPECIAL CTG with strange symbols as brackets on either side of it.

 

[rct269]

264678 shipped March 1, 1917.

354467 shipped November 16, 1920.

RT

 

[wheelgun610]

.... Right side of barrel 38 s&w SPECIAL CTG with strange symbols as brackets on either side of it.

The strange symbols are actually known as 'dingbats'. Another bit of trivia from the "Truth is stranger than fiction" files.

Mark

 

[hibbs]

1905 shipping date

I have sn.317879 and it was shipped 10/19. Yours should be close.

Richard

 

[gordonrick]

I'm also interested in the fact it has the S&W logo. SN 313625 does not - as would be expected for a 1919 shipped gun.

OP - For the first year or two after WWI, the S&W logo went missing. Wartime production was taken over by the government to produce the Model 1917's for the Army and when civilian production resumed, there were no logo's for reasons unknown.

Oh- Here's what the original stocks would have looked like (except probably not as worn!)

 

[JP@AK]

Here's what I found: On the back side of the right grip is 188, and under that is 613.

As I told you in Post #5, those stocks are decades newer than the gun. They almost certainly came on a target frame revolver well after WWII.

If the numbers 188 613 are impressed into the wood of the right stock panel, they shipped on a K target revolver with serial number K188613, which would date them to 1953. That is at the very beginning of S&W's use of this style Magna stocks.

In any case, these stocks do not help identify your gun in any way, since they were put on the gun many years after it left the factory.

Note: for those of you who might speculate these stocks came on an M&P with a C prefix, that isn't likely (I would, in fact, say not possible). C188613 would have been a 1951 gun and the stocks would have had a sharp shoulder.

 

[JP@AK]

I'm also interested in the fact it has the S&W logo. SN 313625 does not - as would be expected for a 1919 shipped gun.

This one made a trip to the Service Department. The monogram is probably a result of that visit to Springfield. Perhaps a new sideplate was fitted. Or maybe they just brought the gun up to date by adding the monogram. We know that during some period after the war, S&W was even adding the four line address to older guns.

 

[daddio202]

No trademark stamp under the cylinder release latch on left side? Maybe gun never had an original trademark stamp like some just after WW1? I can not tell on my very small tablet but does it have a made in USA? Would be an ideal candidate for the stamps when it went back having none to begin with. Did they ever buff out the small one on left and place big side plate trademark with a refinish in the 50's along with 4 line address?

 

[Targets Guy]

I can't get you too close but 3074xx shipped 7/19. Yours looks like a nice one.

The closest to yours that I own is s/n 394728. It shipped 12/21.

 

[DWalt]

Regarding the presence/absence of a S&W logo - S&W dropped stamping of the logo at any location during the 1917-20 period. When it resumed, it was a small (less than dime-sized) circular logo stamped on the left side of the frame behind the trigger. It was changed to a much larger sideplate stamping around 1937. Regarding the grips, they would definitely be from after 1952. I'd agree with the position that they probably came from a K-series revolver. K188613 would have been a K-series revolver made in 1953. No question that your M&P went through some serious refurb at the factory later, likely including refinishing. The sideplate logo stamping is most interesting. I don't remember seeing an earlier gun having the blank sideplate stamped with the S&W logo later during service. It is well known that for some period of time, S&W stamped the so-called "4-line address" on the frame when an early (pre-1922) unstamped revolver came in for service, but stamping the S&W logo on the sideplate is different. Of course, yours could also have had the complete sideplate replaced at the factory, but I can't guess why that would have been needed unless the original sideplate was seriously damaged or defaced.

 

[dockmurgw]

I appreciate all the info folks, lots of good stuff to digest. I am left with one thought after reading all the comments, and that is I'm reminded of the Johny Cash song "I Got It One Piece At A Time". Now I like the gun even more because there aint another one like it!

 

[SparkChaser]

I don’t want to hijack a thread, but y’all seem so helpful. I’ve got a similar firearm that followed me home today, and can’t find a lot of info that isn’t contradictory on it, S/N is 2304XX and matches on cylinder, frame, and barrel. I count five screws four on the sides and one in front of the trigger guard.There is another on the front grip area that seems to put tension on the spring, but I could be wrong. The caliber is stamped as “38 S&W Special” so that’s pretty obvious. There’s a small 644 on both halves of the hinge internal area (Yoke?) when the cylinder is open, and no markings under the grips or anywhere else other than the barrel markings with the patent dates, caliber, and “dingbats”... I’m planning on sending in for the letter mentioned, but need to wait a few weeks so my wife doesn’t lose her mind over the $75 fee... (she wasn’t too pleased that I went to get milk and came home with a revolver.) This is my first S&W, and also only the second revolver in the collection, I’d be hard-pressed to say what exactly spoke to me (other than the machining which is exquisite) but when I handled her I was like “Yeah, you’re coming home with me.” Thanks!!!

 

[Absalom]

I don’t want to hijack a thread, but y’all seem so helpful. I’ve got a similar firearm that followed me home today, and can’t find a lot of info that isn’t contradictory on it, S/N is 2304XX and matches on cylinder and frame, there’s a small 644 on both halves of the hinge internal when the cylinder is open, and no markings under the grips or anywhere else other than the barrel markings with the patent dates, caliber, and “dingbats”...

Welcome to the forum. Usually better to start a separate thread to get more attention for your query.

The serial puts your gun likely in 1914, and it should be a 1905, 3rd change, as the 4th change occurred in 1915 around 241,000.

The serial should also match on the flat area on the underside of the barrel. Serials on the right grip inside were penciled at the time, so can be hard to make out or degrade completely.

The 644 is just a factory assembly number and does not tell us anything additional.

 

[Muley Gil]

I don’t want to hijack a thread, but y’all seem so helpful. I’ve got a similar firearm that followed me home today, and can’t find a lot of info that isn’t contradictory on it, S/N is 2304XX and matches on cylinder and frame, there’s a small 644 on both halves of the hinge internal when the cylinder is open, and no markings under the grips or anywhere else other than the barrel markings with the patent dates, caliber, and “dingbats”... I’m planning on sending in for the letter mentioned, but need to wait a few weeks so my wife doesn’t lose her mind over the $75 fee... (she wasn’t too pleased that I went to get milk and came home with a revolver.) Thanks!!!

Welcome to the Forum.

It is always better to start a new thread when describing a new gun, as it keeps folks from getting confused. Old guys like me get confused easily.

 

[Daniel Howe]

Sure is a nice looking 1905. Wish mine was that pretty

Dan

 

[SparkChaser]

Thanks!

Welcome to the forum. Usually better to start a separate thread to get more attention for your query.

The serial puts your gun likely in 1914, and it should be a 1905, 3rd change, as the 4th change occurred in 1915 around 241,000.

The serial should also match on the flat area on the underside of the barrel. Serials on the right grip inside were penciled at the time, so can be hard to make out or degrade completely.

The 644 is just a factory assembly number and does not tell us anything additional.

Much appreciated that’s great info. Is there anyway to get a mod to move this and the two replies to a new thread, seeing as I’m an idiot? Thanks!

 

[54ball]

No harm done, just start a new thread. You and your pistol deserve it. Each revolver and owner has a story that needs individual attention.