1905 Lend lease?

[chasmatic]

I recently picked up what I believe is a 1905 4th change but it has been modified by the Brits. Ser #932492, "BNP" proof marks all over the thing. 4" blued with a Parker Hale front sight. I'm sending for a letter, I'd like to know what I have and I think there is some story to the thing.

some markings:WB; flaming bomb; circle with arrow on the butt next to lanyard ring; 38 S&W ctg on the right side of barrel; cylinder numbered to the gun.

BTW first time attempting pix, how did they turn out?

TIA for help

 

[DCWilson]

The pics are fine, thanks for posting them.

Yes, lend-lease. Based on the serial number, manufacture date is 1942. I think that barrel was cut from six inches to four during postwar modifications, and a semi-rib sight attached to the shortened barrel.

Note that the barrel says .38 S&W CTG, not . 38 S&W SPECIAL CTG. This gun was originally chambered in the shorter round, also known as .38/200 for the British contracts. The postwar conversions involved reaming out the cylinders to take the longer rounds, and the .38" Special stamp under the barrel testifies to this conversion. This made them more marketable when they were reimported into the United States.

I think the British firm Parker-Hale did some of the modifications, or maybe they just made replacement sights available to other modifiers.

Be warned that .38 Special cases have a slightly smaller diameter than .38 S&W, so firing specials in this gun may result in swollen or even split cases. In no circumstances should you shoot +P rounds in it, and you may want to shoot only lower-power .38 Special loads. Some people shoot specials in these conversions without a problem, but you may want to test yours in a secure way before you make a habit of shooting it.

 

[flagman1776]

Not only is the chamber larger, the bore is also. Very recently there was a thread about the .38 S&W (38/200)to .38 S&W Special caliber conversion. The photos & mesurements are very helpful in understanding what you have. Shooting a few 38 Specials will do no harm but even if the cases do not split, it will work the brass & short case life will result (the cases will likely crack next firing.) I'd disguard cases fired in this chamber so they were not accidentally reused.
Personally, I'd probably hand load 38 S&W cases.
Russ


http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...401-i-have-theory-need-some-help-testing.html

 

[H Richard]

I have heard, but never seen one, that some of the better conversions actually reamed and sleeved the chambers, making shooting 38 Special no problem. If the original barrel is on it, it will most likely be a .360 diameter barrel. Accuracy may not be as good as a .357 diameter barre. I have a 38 S&W Victory and have fitted a 38 Special cylinder, and get acceptable accuracy with it.

 

[chasmatic]

thank you

Yes, 38 S&W: barrel .360 and chambers .360. I did fire some 38 spl, 158Lswc with 4 gr Win 231 and did not see swelled cases. (I slipped some of the fired brass into the cylinder of my Mod 65 no problems, slid in easy and when I tipped it over they all fell out.)
That being said I will heed the advice offered and not load heavy for it, nor shoot it often, nor reuse the brass.
It seems to have low mileage on it. Went over there, sat around, got converted and back she came. Sigh, guess I'll have to shoot the other couple dozen pistols I currently own and let this gal sit in the safe.
I will enjoy it for the history behind it.

 

[ordnanceguy]

I'm sending for a letter, I'd like to know what I have and I think there is some story to the thing. TIA for help

Chas:

DCWilson has given you some pretty good background info on your revolver. I am glad to see that you are seeking a factory letter. I hope that you will share its contents here when you receive it. In the meantime, I will offer you the following additional information.

Your revolver was likely shipped from the factory in the March-April, 1942 time frame. Its probable shipping destination was the Hartford Ordnance Depot in Springfield, Mass. Your revolver was indeed a Lend Lease gun. At some point in its career, probably WW2, it served with Canadians. This is established by the Broad Arrow within the letter C marking on the butt. This means that it was Canadian Government property.

Your revolver was probably a 5" barrel gun before it was converted by Parker Hale in the UK. The Victory Model Database, which I maintain along with my collaborator LWCmdr45, shows a few 6" barreled guns still showing up in this range, but by this date in 1942 the standard was becoming the 5" barrel for the Lend Lease guns.

The various proof marks all over the gun are post-war British commercial proofs.

You may also find of interest the Parker Hale advertisement from 1961 shown below. Your gun is pretty much identical to that shown at the bottom in the advertisement.

I trust that this information has been helpful to you. Please let us hear back from you when you get your factory letter.

 

[chasmatic]

lend-lease and Parker Hale

Thanks for the info, ordnanceguy. Yes, my pistol does resemble the bottom one in that advert. I looked more closely at the cylinder, discovered that it had been sleeved and bored for 38 special. That's why I didn't observe swelled brass. When I test fired it it shot acceptably, 2-3" groups off sandbags @15 yds. Part of that accuracy is my, ahem, humble shooting ability and the not-so-fine trigger.The barrel remains the same 38-200 bore but has been shortened (presumably when the sight was installed). All in all, good clean workmanship so I will assume P-H did the work: barrel, sight, cylinder, so forth, and put it up for sale as exemplified in the ad. Would they have refinished the pistol? It's not like new but it does not show a lot of wear.
Canadian, eh? That adds a bit of background to the pistol. Will there be any historic significance attached to this pistol or is it like, another war gun reworked and put up on the commercial market? One way or the other I'll shoot it occasionally and care for it. And yes, I will send for a letter and post the results.

 

[ordnanceguy]

Will there be any historic significance attached to this pistol or is it like, another war gun reworked and put up on the commercial market?

Chas:

You are welcome.

Yes, the gun was refinished to blue by Parker-Hale at the time of modification.

In my view highly modified guns like this one have lost their character as collectible guns. As such, they are pretty much regarded as shooters and are valued accordingly.

HTH.

 

[chasmatic]

Yeah, that's kinda what I figured.
Although this is a shooter with some story behind it, (more than it came off the shelf of some hardware store and changed hands a couple times.) IMHO any of the weapons that were involved in WWII have some story.

Golly, imagine in a few decades there will be Beretta M9s floating around and considered "significant ... military history ... story ..."
hahaha

 

[mikepriwer]

This is a better way to post the pictures :

Later, Mike Priwer

 

[chasmatic]

Yes Mike, thanks. How can I do that?

 

[flagman1776]

Thanks for the info on chamber bushing. You have a piece of history here. It is very interesting & you have a better shooting revolver as a result. Not a bad day by any means.
Russ

 

[RON in PA]

Suggestion, try some light target loads using 148 grain hollow base wadcutters. The hollow base might seal the bore better.

 

[Dave_n]

I have one of these that looks almost the twin. However, all numbers match, if the cylinders were sleeved, then they did a beautiful job as I cannot see the marks. Since I have Model 11s, Webley MK IVs and Enfield No 2s, I do load 38 S&W and they certainly will not go into the cylinder. 38 Specials work very well. It has a 38 S&W on the barrel. Guess I am going to have to slug it. Dave_n

 

[chasmatic]

cylinder sleeve

Dave, here's some pix of my cylinder. They did pretty good but I will have to polish the chambers, the brass sticks on ejection. They kept the same extractor, numbered to the pistol. The barrel is original, bored for 38-200 but I get acceptable groups for my use: pop cans at 20 yds. Note the muzzle. Nice fit and finish with sight added and barrel shortened.

I am also replacing the center pin and spring, and the bolt and thumbpiece. The cylinder is a bit sticky opening up. I tried the cylinder fit without the center pin, didn't bind, so I figure the lock up parts might be crummy. I seem to see where the center pin may have been broken and welded, but maybe just my old eyes.

In any event replace a few parts, it's a good project for our winter stormy weather. Yes, New Mexico gets dirty weather, in this case 60mph winds and rain that feels like buckshot. Sigh, I have softened a bit since growing up in Chicago.

I'm under no illusions, this will ever be a shooter but I like to fuss around with things, make a good shooter better.

 

[chasmatic]

whoops

Guess I better plug in the pictures, heh heh.