1907 New #3 target rarity claims?

[dbescher]

Apparently, there has been some concern about potential hyperbole re the rarity of 8" new model number three revolvers in RIA descriptions. Personally, I am very (very!) reticent to purchase any collectible or used weapon that I haven't been able to inspect in person, from any source. That said, my dozen or so Rock Island purchases have been 100% satisfactory, including this one.

I don't have any idea how many new model #3s with 8" barrels were ever shipped. My understanding is that nobody does. The the terms "scarce" and "non-standard special order 8 inch barrel" aren't misleading IMO. If they quoted specific, suspect numbers in the past I never saw it. I've included some pics of the front and rear sights in case those are of interest. I fixed the ejector the day after it arrived.

Collectible Firearms for Serious Gun Collectors | Rock Island Auction

 

[dbescher]

The rest of the pics

 

[DARE]

Very nice. Thanks for posting it. If the peep sight is original to gun you have even more rarity. If Roy Jinks has never seen one I'll bet there are not many.

 

[mrcvs]

The peep sight is the rarity with regards to your revolver. An 8" barrel on a New Model No 3 revolver is neither scarce nor rare, but best described as possibly uncommon.

 

[Masterpiece]

My dozen or so Rock Island purchases have been 100% satisfactory, including this one.

Collectible Firearms for Serious Gun Collectors | Rock Island Auction

dbescher,

Quick question...Is the Link you posted to Rock Island supposed to bring up the Orig. Listing for Your Revolver?? If so...Thought I'd let you know it doesn't...If possible could you Post the Actual Auction Listing Link to see what they had to say about it...Appreciate it??

 

[dbescher]

dbescher,

Quick question...Is the Link you posted to Rock Island supposed to bring up the Orig. Listing for Your Revolver?? If so...Thought I'd let you know it doesn't...If possible could you Post the Actual Auction Listing Link to see what they had to say about it...Appreciate it??

Huh. It sends me to the auction listing when I click on it, which is the extent of my technical knowledge. Hopefully if you copy this url text and paste it into your browser it will get you there.

EDIT: the forum software automatically makes the text into a url. Try adding a "www." in front of this:
.rockislandauction.com/detail/88/3081


Here's a new link to the same url. One of them should work, I hope.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,



I cannot tell you how rare the 8" barrel is but I recently purchased
a very similar #3NM too (although my rear sight is different).

If I read your ruler correctly, yours is like mine in that it has the
1-9/16" cylinder (i.e. long strap #3NM).

Thanks for sharing yours with us. Here are a few pics of mine.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[Model19man]

Huh. It sends me to the auction listing when I click on it, which is the extent of my technical knowledge. Hopefully if you copy this url text and paste it into your browser it will get you there.

EDIT: the forum software automatically makes the text into a url. Try adding a "www." in front of this:
.rockislandauction.com/detail/88/3081


Here's a new link to the same url. One of them should work, I hope.

Seems like a decent deal for the price. Thank you for sharing.

 

[dbescher]

The peep sight is the rarity with regards to your revolver. An 8" barrel on a New Model No 3 revolver is neither scarce nor rare, but best described as possibly uncommon.

I can't make any claim to expertise re any of the top break or earlier S&Ws, nor do I wish to seem argumentative. However, words like "scarce," "rare," etc., can't be anything but subjective. If Smith & Wesson made ~36,000 new model number threes and 2% (720) of those had 8" barrels, for example, I'd guess that the eight inchers were called something like "scarce" when they were being offered at retail.

This specific revolver has hardly any remaining finish and was advertised and delivered with a since-repaired mechanical issue. I bought it because I thought the price was fair, that I thought I could fix it, and that I had never seen one before. "Novel" from my perspective, "scarce" from RIA's, and "uncommon" from yours seem nearly synonymous, or at least equally ambiguous. If I listed it for sale here today at the same price I paid for it, I'd be surprised if it lasted a day.

 

[mrcvs]

Rare means less common than scarce which is less common than uncommon.

 

[mmaher94087]

I had a fisplay at the SWCA Symposium in Glendale, AZ this past June. It was comprised of approximately 40 antique Smith & Wesson revolvers. The title was "Rare, Scarce or uncommon Tip-up and Top Break Smith & Wesson Revolvers".

My criteria for each category was as follows:

My Definitions: RARE - 100 or less manufactured or known to exist.
SCARCE - 5500 or less manufactured or known to
exist.
UNCOMMON - not often encountered; not quantified.

 

[mrcvs]

I had a fisplay at the SWCA Symposium in Glendale, AZ this past June. It was comprised of approximately 40 antique Smith & Wesson revolvers. The title was "Rare, Scarce or uncommon Tip-up and Top Break Smith & Wesson Revolvers".

My criteria for each category was as follows:

My Definitions: RARE - 100 or less manufactured or known to exist.
SCARCE - 5500 or less manufactured or known to
exist.
UNCOMMON - not often encountered; not quantified.

Scarce—I think you mean 500 or less and not 5500 or less.

And so, according to your definition, and since I believe at least 500 New Model
No 3 revolvers with 8" barrels were manufactured, I would consider them to be uncommon.

 

[mmaher94087]

Actually, I made the 'scarce' determination because of the Turkish .44 Henery Rimfire: New Model #3, Single Action, Turkish, .44 Henry RF, blue, lanyard ring, 6 ½" barrel. 5461 Manufactured. Scarce. This variation is not often encountered in the U.S.

Since I've only found one 8" barrel in 60 years of collecting, I designate them as scarce. I.e., without any input to the contrary, I think they are scarce, very scarce today in the U.S..

 

[Books]

So...a first model Safety Hammerless 38 would be scarce. (Only 5250 were manufactured.) As would 1st model DA 38. (Only 4000 were produced.)

I've been trying to quantify scarce and rare. I considered less than 1000 rare. This would make a blued 1st model Safety Hammerless 38 rare.

It gets trickier when dealing with "scarce" or "rare" variants of common models. Such as red, ivory or target stocks; or long or short barrels.

Quantifying subjective terms is always a challenge.

Books

PS - I'm not trying to start an argument; just encouraging an elightened discussion among collectors.

 

[mrcvs]

So...a first model Safety Hammerless 38 would be scarce. (Only 5250 were manufactured.) As would 1st model DA 38. (Only 4000 were produced.)

I've been trying to quantify scarce and rare. I considered less than 1000 rare. This would make a blued 1st model Safety Hammerless 38 rare.

It gets trickier when dealing with "scarce" or "rare" variants of common models. Such as red, ivory or target stocks; or long or short barrels.

Quantifying subjective terms is always a challenge.

Books

PS - I'm not trying to start an argument; just encouraging an elightened discussion among collectors.

Now that's interesting. Here's a blued 1st model Safety Hammerless in .38 cal and I never considered it to be rare, scarce, or uncommon. The only uncommon thing about it is its original box, and it's debatable how uncommon that really might be.

 

[mmaher94087]

MRCVS, that blue .38 is a 2nd model. First Models are often called Z-Bars from the fact that the barrel catch is horizontal and pushes from the left.

 

[mrcvs]

MRCVS, that blue .38 is a 2nd model. First Models are often called Z-Bars from the fact that the barrel catch is horizontal and pushes from the left.

Well, neither of us are correct—I think!

I recalled it being ANTIQUE and early, but I guess not early enough to be a first model. According to the advertisement, it's a THIRD Model.

I negotiated a better price than the asking price, however.

WTS: **SOLD** S&W New Departure 3rd. Model .38 S&W with orig. box

 

[mmaher94087]

Yes. Third Model. Next time I'll put my glasses on. A very nice example too.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

MRCVS, that blue .38 is a 2nd model. First Models are often called Z-Bars from the fact that the barrel catch is horizontal and pushes from the left.

Unless my eyes are deceiving me, the latch is on the back of the top
strap and that indicates this is a 38 Safety Hammerless third model.
The second model had the release on the frame below and behind
the top strap.

Cheers!
Webb

 

[Books]

1st model Safety Hammerless with latch in the top strap.

With 17% (of all top-breaks) having 5 inch barrels and only 5250 1st model safety hammerless' manufactured; the top would be considered scarce.?

Only about 20% of pre-1900 top-breaks being blued, the bottom is also scarce.

Books