1909/1917 in 45 anywhere?

[flash60601]

I kind of think I'd like to get a 1909/1917 in 45 caliber sometime, Colt or S&W. I have not seen very many in the market for years.

I'd be pleased to become a bit more educated about them, as I know there are many here with an intimate knowledge of them.

Anybody care to share thoughts and info???

Thanks,

Flash

 

[Muley Gil]

1909 revolvers were only built by Colt, on the New Service frame, chambered for a cartridge that resembled a .45 Colt round, but had a wider rim for more positive ejection.

Do a search for "1917" and you find a ton of threads and posts, as these old warhorses are very popular on this Forum.

 

[CJKarl]

Just picked up a 1917. It's now my bedroom gun.

 

[Texas Star]

I had a Colt M-1917 that did not like lead .45 Auto-Rim bullets. The rifling is designed for jacketed bullets.

I also had a S&W M-1950 Target .45 that also did not like soft lead.

You'd probably have to pay more for a Colt M-1909, as fewer were made. BTW, they were blued. Most Colt 1917's seem to be Parkerized, although many were refinished in WW II that way. Some of those have pretty rough finishes, with a swirl near the front sight. S&W 1917's are usually better finished and hold cylinder timing better.

Keep in mind that these are now about 100 years old and don't shoot them with hot loads.

 

[Robinett_11B]

I didn't have to search too hard to find an alright example of a WWI S&W 1917....been sitting at my FFL for a while now though, gotta find the time to go pick it up

I found mine on Auction Arms, got an alright deal from what I've been told too. You should be able to find one pretty readily on the auction sites.

 

[JSR III]

I just saw one today at a gun show in the 170,000 range asking $750, it was a shooter not a safe queen. The really nice ones are going around $1,000 lately.

 

[tgd31968]

I have a 1909 I got on GB. It was refinished, but it had been done long ago and was a good refinish.
The stocks had been sanded, and the inspectors initials that are stamped in to the bottom of the stocks were gone, but I just wanted an example, and don't really care if it is perfect as long as the price is right. I paid about $700.

The gov went to colt to get a DA 45 revolver as an expedient to replace the 38 cal revolvers that were proving ineffective in stopping Philipino warriors. This was prior to the introduction of the 1911 and the 45 ACP. I think the number made was about 36,000.

You will find many 1909 revolvers to be refinished. When the gov contracted to colt, there was no change in spec for the finish. Colt simply made them with the standard high polish blue finish of their production guns. I have seen photos of some that survived in original condition and they are beautiful. You don't think Gov issue when you see one.
However, many were sent overseas and the exposure to weather and salt air took their toll on the beautiful but delicate high polish blue. So often find them with an original finish that is well worn, or refinished.

 

[DRB]

I gave $400 for this 1909 in less then perfect condition with the wrong grips. That was a couple years ago Iwould expect them to be worth twice that now.

 

[M2MikeGolf]

I had a Colt M-1917 that did not like lead .45 Auto-Rim bullets. The rifling is designed for jacketed bullets.

Ummm, how so? The Colt 1917 was barely more than a M 1909 with a .45 ACP capable cylinder. When the US entered WWI and found itself short of M1911s, it asked both Colt and S&W to provide .45 ACP capable revolvers to supplement the shortage and they both used existing models to quickly accomplish that; Pershing had wanted each soldier to have a handgun. I'm pretty sure that they didn't alter any rifling to match ballistics with jacketed ACP ammunition. If so, I'd like to see those statistics.

The gov went to colt to get a DA 45 revolver as an expedient to replace the 38 cal revolvers that were proving ineffective in stopping Philipino warriors.

The expedient had already been found in the shape of the Model 1873 SAA revolver when the .38 "long" proved ineffective against Filipino rebels, the Moros in particular. The military took a lesson from that and decided that in the future that the larger caliber should be a standard sidearm and the M-1909 was the first contracted issue of a "modernized" (i.e. doubel action) handgun, that is double action like the .38s, but with the .45 caliber, similar to the .45 Long Colt (it was supposed to have a wider rim for better extraction). The trials for the auto had already begun by then (as early even as the 1890s) and the 1909 was really more like an interim design until a satisfactory semi-automatic design could be approved.

The Colt 1917s were not parkerized, but rather had a somewhat rough polished blue, the S&W blue being much better polished.

I highly recommend a S&W 1917. Although I like the Colts fine, I think the 1917 is the best revolver S&W ever made for the military, and mabye the best revolver the military ever issued. I think you'd find better use for the ACP, after all, you gotta' love those moonclips, half or full!

 

[Texas Star]

Ummm, how so? The Colt 1917 was barely more than a M 1909 with a .45 ACP capable cylinder. When the US entered WWI and found itself short of M1911s, it asked both Colt and S&W to provide .45 ACP capable revolvers to supplement the shortage and they both used existing models to quickly accomplish that; Pershing had wanted each soldier to have a handgun. I'm pretty sure that they didn't alter any rifling to match ballistics with jacketed ACP ammunition. If so, I'd like to see those statistics.



The expedient had already been found in the shape of the Model 1873 SAA revolver when the .38 "long" proved ineffective against Filipino rebels, the Moros in particular. The military took a lesson from that and decided that in the future that the larger caliber should be a standard sidearm and the M-1909 was the first contracted issue of a "modernized" (i.e. doubel action) handgun, that is double action like the .38s, but with the .45 caliber, similar to the .45 Long Colt (it was supposed to have a wider rim for better extraction). The trials for the auto had already begun by then (as early even as the 1890s) and the 1909 was really more like an interim design until a satisfactory semi-automatic design could be approved.

The Colt 1917s were not parkerized, but rather had a somewhat rough polished blue, the S&W blue being much better polished.

I highly recommend a S&W 1917. Although I like the Colts fine, I think the 1917 is the best revolver S&W ever made for the military, and mabye the best revolver the military ever issued. I think you'd find better use for the ACP, after all, you gotta' love those moonclips, half or full!

Many times over the years, I have seen references to the rifling being designed for jacketed bullets. I think Keith refers to this in, "Sixguns", which you may have on hand, or should. But some hard-cast lead bulets work better than the softer ones in factory Auto Rim loads.

 

[S&WIowegan]

I have a Colt 1909 and a Colt RCMP, both in .45 Colt calibre. The 1909s are not rare but somewhat scarce. I see them on auction at Rock Island Auction several times a year. I don't see the Canadian New Service guns that often.

I like the New Service revos....they are just massive!

 

[bmcgilvray]

I keep all three around here: a Colt Model 1909, Colt Model 1917, and Smith & Wesson Model 1917. All three seem to relish shooting the same bullet, a Keith style 250 grain lead SWC.

The Model 1917 Smith & Wesson is the easiest of the three to shoot double action.

 

[tgd31968]

I had a Colt M-1917 that did not like lead .45 Auto-Rim bullets. The rifling is designed for jacketed bullets.

I also had a S&W M-1950 Target .45 that also did not like soft lead.

Couple of things I would look at, maybe you did already.

1) Very soft, either pure or low alloy lead bullets can strip through the rifling if pushed at high enough velocity. Certainly can hurt accuracy. I was loading hard cast in a .357 and was pushing them too hard. Accuracy came back when I backed off considerably on the velocity.

2) Bullet diameter. Some older 45 LC like a .454 bullet vs a .452. If you haven't already, slug the bore and see what the actual diameter is.

I checked for a rate of twist and as far as I can tell, both the .45 Single Action Army and the M1909 had a 1:16 twist. I was thinking if they had a faster twist it would be another reason why a cast bullet might be less accurate than an FMJ.

These are just some things that I have found, and may or may not be the same as the experience of others.

TD

 

[Rich/WIS]

Saw a 1917 commercial model on another forum, had all the blue polished off and butt swivel removed, asking $625. I was thinkng this was a bit high but don't know enough about values to know for sure.

 

[flash60601]

Thanks to you all. I have certainly enjoyed the information and I think that if I could find a decent S&W that I'd enjoy it more, but if a Colt comes around looking for a home, I won't turn up my nose.. There is a guy locally who has a Colt and he is not a shooter and he might be willing to let it go for a price.

It just seems like a big, gnarly revolver that everybody ought to have one of.

Thanks,

Flash

 

[M2MikeGolf]

It just seems like a big, gnarly revolver that everybody ought to have one of.

Flash, you hit the nail on the head...Enjoy!

Many times over the years, I have seen references to the rifling being designed for jacketed bullets. I think Keith refers to this in, "Sixguns", which you may have on hand, or should. But some hard-cast lead bulets work better than the softer ones in factory Auto Rim loads.

I don't have a copy of Keith's book "Sixguns"; if I felt I had any use for it, I'd own one. As I understand Keith's ideas about cartridges, he was mostly fond of lead bullets in general and believed that copper jacketed projectiles (and steel too, for that matter) damaged rifling and performed poorly. I don't know that he made any comments about rifling being designed for jacketed bullets at least in regards to the 1909 and 1917 models, but I do know that he once stated that one could wear out the rifling on a M1911 by firing 5000 or so rounds out of it. I would agree with him, but only if you fired those 5000 in one sustained or even cyclic shooting period as I know by my experience in the Army that if you superheat a barrel for an extended period, you will indeed wear out the rifling, no matter what you shoot through it. I would be more interested to know what someone like John Browning thought about it all since he actually designed, developed and manufactured numerous and diversified weapons which fired a myriad of bullet types (lead, copper, steel, tracer, etc.), and in extreme situations to boot. Performance and accuracy can depend on a lot more than just bullet material such as TD pointed out in post 13. Both the 1909 and 1917s, S&W and Colts had the same bore size and 1:16 twist, which had little or nothing do with jacketed .45 ACP or .45 LC. If I'm not mistaken, using copper jacketed bullets had as much to do with the reliability of bolt, semi and fully automatic weapons which were just emerging at the turn of the century than it did with bullet effectiveness; the Europeans were crazy for FMJ spitzer rifle bullets and auto pistol designs at the time. That, of course, was not such a big issue with revolvers, but there was a military requirement for FMJ projectiles in small arms, also partially driven by international mandate, still referred to as the "Law of Land Warfare", or more commonly known as the "Geneva Accords".

 

[PALADIN85020]

Much has been written by many (including me) on the 1917 Colts and S&Ws. Not so much on the 1909 Colt, which is the direct predecessor of the 1917 model.

A total of 21,933 were manufactured from 1909 - 1911. They were chambered for the .45 Colt (modified) which had a slightly wider rim for better extraction. Modern .45 Colt ammo has a wider rim than the original stuff also, and it works fine in these revolvers. Some were marked U.S.N. (1000) and U.S.M.C. (1300), but most went to the Army. Of the 19,503 Army models, 19,153 went directly to the Philippines. As a result, very few intact originals exist here in the U.S. I'm fortunate enough to have found one, made in 1910. Incidentally, the earliest Colt 1917s had a straight barrel like the 1909s, with no flare near the frame. Not many of those exist. Here's a pic of my 1909. John

 

[beagleye]

There is much being said about the bore, which is obviously relevant, but another important consideration here is the cylinder throat. Some of these old warhorses have huge gaping throats! If the bullet arrives at the barrel crooked it probably isn't going to shoot straight regardless if what it's made from. Big bullet (.455), flat base, soft metal moderate speed seems to be the ticket with mine for excellent accuracy from a real wallowed out throat.