1911 grip safety

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(I didn't want to hi-jack the Tisas thread.)
I did a search here to find one I read couple years or so back about guys, mainly competition shooters, that have their grip safeties drilled & pinned to disable it. One post said that it's there as a drop safety. Another guy cut a piece of bicycle tube to fit over the handle to disable it, which eliminates my duct tape idea. And, no, that was not gonna happen; I was only kiddin'. I just don't like the awkward two-handed way of dropping the hammer on a live, chambered round. My thumb is only so long. The gun is my standby house gun (in one area of one house level) so when I load it I chamber a round, drop the hammer, then top off the mag. Rifles & revolvers are easy, one-handed, but not the 1911 pistol. Sorry this is so long, so I ask is pinning the hammer back a bad/stupid idea? It's not a CCW, just recreational shooting and hopefully not for home invaders, but it's in its place, waiting. For my own reasons I don't keep it cocked & locked, but there is a first click when cocking it that keeps the hammer off the firing pin but not fully cocked. Similar to the some older rifles. So, please gently tell me the errs of my ways or to just keep it cocked & locked or is the semi-permanent pinned back safety a real thing?
Thanks...Jeff
 
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Why do you want to pin the safety?

Do you have trouble when shooting the pistol?

Does your grip not hold the grip safety down?

If you do have trouble, rather than deactivate the grip safety, there is a style of safety that has a bump on it.

Les%20Baer%20Concept%20VII%20s.jpg


These go by different names . . . . Safety Bump . . . . Memeory Groove . . . . Tactical Bump, Etc.

p_087000126_2.jpg
 
If you are afraid or whatever “for my own reasons”, of having it cocked and locked? Hammer down, empty chamber, full magazine might be a possibility for you. I have run 1911’s with pinned safeties, and if you employ the slide safety and finger off the trigger idea, the chance of a ND are slim. However, that takes a but of training that most people are too lazy to do.

Da/Sa, S/A, safe action, Condition a b c d with a 1911 etc will all go boom if the trigger is pulled to the rear.

The Lort and JM Browning designed the 1911 with certain methods of carry in mind. The Services requested several modifications to suit their requirements for carry, etc.

Get a revolver, and keep a charge hole empty under the hammer for the absolute safest way to be. Or magazine out chamber empty “for my own reasons!”

But you do you, boo.

Regards, Rick Gibbs
 
There is a sort of hidden aspect of the 1911 that many are unaware of. That is that if you pull the hammer down from the cocked position that action will disengage the safety. So to decock one handed you start by pulling the hammer down while sliding the pad of your finger over the face of the hammer and then pull the trigger all the way to the rear, hold the trigger back until the hammer is past the full cock position, release the trigger and continue to lower the hammer. Doing this will completely eliminate the chance of a discharge and permit you to safely lower the hammer. Note that trigger release part way thru is to re-engage the drop safety if it's a series 80 pistol, if you have a series 70 this step is not necessary and trapping the hammer face until the intercept notch is engaged is a safe alternate. I will also note that this procedure can be done one handed but recommend some practice with an unloaded pistol until you have confidence you can do this well.
 
I have seen frames crack when they were drilled and tapped for set screws to disengage the grip safety. A dentist friend of mine started drilling into the bottom of the grip safety and top of the mainspring housing and inserting a pin to lock the two pieces together. If you mess these pieces up, they are cheaper to replace than a frame.
 
I would not pin the grip safety, there is no logical reason for doing such a thing and it could be a point of litigation should such an altered firearm be used for defense. I'm also not a fan of lowering the hammer on a hot chamber, the 1911 was not designed for that mode of use. The basic 1911 has three safeties. First, your finger not being on the trigger until ready to fire. Second, the grip safety will prevent the trigger bow from tripping the sear unless the grip safety is depressed. Third is the thumb safety, which locks the sear, making the pistol safe to carry cocked and locked. Firing pin safeties were added later to prevent a loaded pistol from firing when dropped onto a hard surface. In short, don't mess with the grip safety, just load it and put on the thumb safety or keep it with the chamber empty.
 
It most certainly was designed with hammer-down on a live round use in mind. AFAIK there is no other reason to incorporate an inertial firing pin in a single-action auto.

Same thing could be said about the way the hammer and grip safety interact when the hammer is pulled farther back, but it is remotely possible that that is an “accidental” feature. Not that I’d 2nd guess JMB!

OTOH, we know the original design was not with Condition One in mind, because there was no thumb safety, and the customer that requested the thumb safety did so to facilitate mounted reholstering after firing.

The OP’s suggestion of Condition Two has the advantages of 1 more round, no danger of an initial misfeed, easy thumb cock, and a gun that can sit until needed, possibly for years, with a very low chance of accidental discharge. Disadvantages are the requirement to lower the hammer on a live round, which to be fair is being done in a non-adrenaline-charged moment. (You can always use the thumb safety after an encounter if you don’t feel up to the hammer drop.)

Condition One has a speed advantage, with a possible safety disadvantage.

Condition Three is probably safest, and slightly slower plus you lose 1 round and have the chance of a misfeed when racking. OTOH, you get to make the racking noise, for what that may be worth. Lock and Load! :)
 
(I didn't want to hi-jack the Tisas thread.)
I did a search here to find one I read couple years or so back about guys, mainly competition shooters, that have their grip safeties drilled & pinned to disable it. One post said that it's there as a drop safety. Another guy cut a piece of bicycle tube to fit over the handle to disable it, which eliminates my duct tape idea. And, no, that was not gonna happen; I was only kiddin'. I just don't like the awkward two-handed way of dropping the hammer on a live, chambered round. My thumb is only so long. The gun is my standby house gun (in one area of one house level) so when I load it I chamber a round, drop the hammer, then top off the mag. Rifles & revolvers are easy, one-handed, but not the 1911 pistol. Sorry this is so long, so I ask is pinning the hammer back a bad/stupid idea? It's not a CCW, just recreational shooting and hopefully not for home invaders, but it's in its place, waiting. For my own reasons I don't keep it cocked & locked, but there is a first click when cocking it that keeps the hammer off the firing pin but not fully cocked. Similar to the some older rifles. So, please gently tell me the errs of my ways or to just keep it cocked & locked or is the semi-permanent pinned back safety a real thing?
Thanks...Jeff
All I can say is it wouldn’t be wise to do that on so many levels it borders on foolishness, period.
Just learn how to use the gun correctly.
 
There is no need to use two hands to decock a 1911. If you can safely lower the hammer on a double action or single action revolver, you can decock a 1911 with one hand.


Look at the first picture and you see a standard cocked 1911. Second picture - you put your thumb on the hammer and pull it back further. The hammer spur hits the top of the grip safety, pushing it down, which pushes the bottom of the grip safety in, because it pivots on a pin, and this deactivates the grip safety. While holding it in this position, pull the trigger, and then while holding the trigger back lower the hammer.


It's quite simple once you've done it a few times. I suggest practicing with an empty gun, but after a while you do it without even thinking about it. It's like putting a Ruger 22 automatic back together. Do it a couple of times and it's no longer complicated.
 

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He hn

Some of the responses here are….sketchy.

I was issued a 1911 in the military, I concealed carried one as an off duty weapon when I was an LEO and while it is no longer my go to concealed carry weapon I conceal carried a 1911 for a couple decades, and still carry it when the mood strikes.

Here’s my take on it given 38 years of experience with it:

1) The hammer can be decocked with one hand by placing your thing over the front face of the hammer and pressing it back to depress the grip safety.

That isn’t accidental, it’s an intentional design element. There was simply no other reason to use the grip safety as the tang on the 1911.

The question is whether it was ever intended to be done with one hand or two. It does take some practice to do it one handed and to do it safely. Even with two hands, you want to press the hammer all the way back against the tang to lift the hammer’s sear notch off the sear to ensure you have it under positive control before you pull the trigger.

2) Just like on the John Browning designed Winchester Model 1892 and 1894 rifles and carbines, the quarter cock notch is there to catch the hammer and prevent it from striking the firing pin of the hammer slips while you are manually cocking it.

IT IS NOT THERE AS ANY KIND OF DROP SAFETY. In fact, just the opposite. With the hammer down, the inertial firing pin prevents the gun from going off if dropped.

There is an exception to this. When I was an LEO I read about drop testing the Series 70 1911 (a few years after the series 80 came out). The conclusion was you could get a Series 70 1911 to fore Whn dropped, but it had to be dropped muzzle down at a near vertical angle from at least 3’ onto a concrete floor. Of course under those circumstances the round would just put a divot in the concrete with minimal risk to anyone.

In contrast, if you carry it with the hammer on the quarter cock position, a blow to the back of the hammer can both shear the quarter cock notch, and impart enough energy to the firing pin to cause the weapon to fire. My dad had a Model 1892 slip on a tractor with the hammer striking the axel on the way down. The carbine fired and shot him under his ribs and exiting out the back near the top of the shoulder blade.

Do not leave a hammer on the quarter cock notch, unless it also has a firing pin safety.

3). The consensus of expert opinion over the last 100 years has been that Condition 1 (cocked and locked on a loaded chamber) carry makes the most sense for law enforcement and armed citizen use. It’s safe, it’s fast and it’s consistent as you just have to learn to place your thumb over the thumb safety as you draw and depress it when the muzzle is pointed down range.

If you carry it in Condition 2 (hammer down on a loaded chamber). You will have to manually cock the hammer to ready the pistol for action. That’s a fiddly fine motor activity that you will suck at under extreme stress and time pressure. It’s one of the big reasons why the quarter cock notch is there.

Condition 3 carry (hammer down on an empty chamber). Makes sense for the military as soldiers usually have ample warning of an impending personnel threat where they might need to use their 1911 and they have time to rack the slide to chamber a round.

Soldiers armed with a 1911 were often rear area support troops who were also often poorly trained in its use, and had very little proficiency or recency. Condition 3 made sense to prevent accidents.

The Israelis used Condition 3 for all of their troops, but they did that because it was a manual of arms that worked for all of the wide variety of pistols they had in their inventory. Those included but were not limited to 1911s, Hi Powers, Walther P-38s, M1951 Berettas, and the later DA Jericho 941 and Sig P226, as well as the striker fired Glock 17 and Glock 19.

The advantage of Condition 3 over Condition 2 in a stressful situation is that racking the slide is a gross motor movement you can still perform under extreme stress. And if you practice properly sling shotting the slide it can be done very quickly.


——


As for pinning the grip safety, it was a popular thing to do back in the day for tactical pistol match shooters with big fleshy hands that didn’t always adequately depress the grip safety.

Back then most 1911s had an arched mainspring housing and a low profile grip safety which made the grip safety more likely to not be fully depressed.

That arched mainspring housing was a change on the 1911A1. The original 1911 had a flat mainspring housing. Today virtually all 1911s being sold have a flat mainspring housing as well as a higher profile grip safety or a grip safety with a hump on it.

Original 1911:

001(181).HEIC


The 1911 at 12 o’clock is a 1991 series Colt Government model with a retro flat mainspring housing but it still has a higher profile safety lever.

The other two demonstrate the two different approaches to increasing the profile.

FullSizeRender_b5orEfCFnGZiKNrBsREjr7.jpg


The end result is virtually no one pins a grip safety anymore. It’s just not needed.

There are benefits to having it.

If you are reholstering a 1911 after using it in a real world combat or self defense situation, the action of lifting and pivoting the pistol to put it back in the holster usually lifts the hand off the grip safety.

If you are properly trained to intentionally put your thumb between the hammer and slide, without pressing back on the hammer, or alternatively to press forward on the tang or beaver tail, your hand is completely off the grip safety.

001(55).HEIC


Either way with your hand off the grip safety it still won’t fire even if you are under extreme stress and both:
- forget to engage the manual safety; and
- forget to take your finger off the trigger when you try to shove the pistol back in the holster.

Compare that to what happens when an excited officers tries to reholster a Glock with his finger still on the trigger. There’s a reason modern duty holsters designed for striker fired pistols are so far out away from the leg.


——

The reality is that most negligent discharges in the home occur during administrative handling of a pistol. People come home, and decide it’s safer to unload it before putting it somewhere like on top of the refrigerator to keep it safe from the kids.

That means handling the pistol to un load it and then reload it, and none of it is necessary. Just leave the gun on u to, you go to bed and then put it in a decent lock box or biometric hand gun safe and leave the gun loaded. And if it’s a 1911, leave it in Condition 1.
 
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I was on the range once when another instructor was qualifying an undercover agent on his choice of a UC gun - a 1911 .45 ACP.

The instructor was senior to me (a Hoover man, as you would find out within 5 minutes of meeting him) so I didn’t butt in. He knew revolvers, and to a lesser extent Sig Sauer DA/SA pistols.

He was showing the UCA how it worked and kerplowed a 230 grain surprise into the gravel. ADs are a big deal in the Bureau, even on the range, and at the time would earn you three days on the beach sans pay to reflect on the error of your ways.

Hooverman later told me he was lowering the hammer on a live round to show the UCA how to carry it. To him, carrying a gun meant the hammer was down.

If you’re not comfortable with cocked and locked, I’d suggest either leaving the chamber empty or trying another gun.
 
Most of the answers are what I expected and I DID learn a thing or two. For my purpose of having the gun where it is, it does make a ton of sense to use it as intended and unmolested; I'll just make it easy on myself and use the thumb safety, as intended. I'm the only one here who knows where it is (wife doesn't have any interest in firearms so she won't mess with it, even if she could reach it. I never took into account of causing a weakness in the frame, etc., so that and all other reasons above I'll leave it alone and thank you all for setting me straight without breaking my kneecaps!
Jeff
 
I wasn’t trying to talk the OP out of a modification, rather offer a cheaper method, should the original idea fail.

No one has pointed out that the S&W factory saw fit to equip the original Centennial models with a grip safety locking pin seventy years ago.
 
Lowering the hammer on a live round is not something I've ever seen associated with the 1911, and that is no surprise given how the gun works. Sorry if this comes over as a bit harsh, but each type of gun has a manual of arms, a set of instructions that tell you how to safely and effectively use that firearm. If there is something in the operation of a weapon that doesn't work for you, you bought the wrong gun.

I dislike that the safety on the 1911 also locks the slide. That I cannot do a press check without disengaging a safety just seems wrong to me. YMMV.
 
Another thing I learned: Even something as, well, unintelligent as the question/subject I had, I believe you all have responded with respect even though I'm sure what was on your minds was "a little different" than I would bet you were responding with. I thank you all for that from the bottom of my heart.
Also, as an FYI, I changed out the 1911 .45 cal. to a M92 Beretta. It's a very good shooter for an oldster and other than the 9mm and 15 + 1 capacity, it's very close to the size & weight of my particular 1911. I also changed my bedroom handgun. No reason except it's a revolver with a little more power.
Thanks again,
Jeff Taylor
 
Lowering the hammer on a live round is not something I've ever seen associated with the 1911, and that is no surprise given how the gun works. Sorry if this comes over as a bit harsh, but each type of gun has a manual of arms, a set of instructions that tell you how to safely and effectively use that firearm. If there is something in the operation of a weapon that doesn't work for you, you bought the wrong gun.

I dislike that the safety on the 1911 also locks the slide. That I cannot do a press check without disengaging a safety just seems wrong to me. YMMV.

Realistically the only time I actually do it is when putting an empty 1911 away for storage.
 
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