1911 Half Notch

[cmort666]

My comment was in reference to those who are uncomfortable with cocked and locked carry. The manual of arms for the Glock pistols is simpler than that of a 1911 style pistol.

Simple enough to get stupid people killed.

I keep hearing about people shooting themselves holstering their Glocks. It happened to one of the NASA Lewis guards while I worked there. I don't know how you can do that and not do it with a S&W Model 10, but they manage it anyway.

Glocks are simple guns that rely entirely on the common sense of the user. That makes them much easier to shoot well than other semi-auto handguns, especially the D/A only guns with 2,000lb. triggers with 10' of travel.

I regularly carry a Glock 19 or a Glock 22, but I'm VERY serious about trigger discipline. There are some people who aren't, and they get in trouble with Glocks... sometimes only once.

 

[Chubbs103]

I will go ahead and jump on this one, even though it has been pretty well covered. The 1911 should be in one of the following conditions: empty chamber, cocked and locked, or firing down range. I don't recommend trying to take it outside of these conditions. There are plenty of other pistols designs if this doesn't fit the bill.

The half-cock notch will prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin if you are manually cocking the weapon on a loaded chamber. Of course you shouldn't have found yourself in this condition to begin with.

The half-cock notch will prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin if you are lowering the hammer with a very disciplined trigger finger and got your bugger picker off of the bang switch as soon as the hammer released from full-cock. I can confirm this works with thr BHP as it saved me from an AD long ago. I'm still not shure why I was lowering the hammer over a chambered round as I knew better even then. Do not put yourself in this position. Do not lower the hammer on a chambered round period (I realize there are plenty that do. Flame away.).

The half-cock notch will prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin if the sear breaks while the frame-mounted manual safety is off.

Hope this helps.

Chubbs

 

[Centenniel]

cmort666,

You omitted the most important part of my post in the quote you included above. Here is what I said:

"My comment was in reference to those who are uncomfortable with cocked and locked carry. The manual of arms for the Glock pistols is simpler than that of a 1911 style pistol. I don't own a Glock, but am well versed in their use and characteristics. I think we can all agree that any gun must be understood to be carried safely and that safe gun handling rules always apply."

The last sentence is key. I believe that it is in agreement with your statement about the trigger.

A friend of mine once shot himself through the thigh with a 1911. He was trying to lower the hammer on a loaded pistol with his finger on the trigger. Most firearms related accidents are caused by ignorance or carelessness. We should not be guilty of either. No firearms design, in itself, can safeguard a person against ignorance or carelessness. Guns that actually work aren't foolproof.

 

[flop-shank]

I keep hearing about people shooting themselves holstering their Glocks. I don't know how you can do that and not do it with a S&W Model 10, but they manage it anyway.

Reholstering a DA revolver with an exposed hammer is safer than many pistols, at least in theory, because you can put your thumb right on the hammer as you push the gun into the holster. The revolver's longer heavier trigger is a plus also.

Glocks are simple guns that rely entirely on the common sense of the user. That makes them much easier to shoot well than other semi-auto handguns, especially the D/A only guns with 2,000lb. triggers with 10' of travel.

Yes they are easier to shoot well, but speaking for myself, the very trigger that makes them easier than the DA revolvers I prefer gets rid of the "fudge factor" that makes DA revolvers the guns that I would rather live with.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[gunnut2u]

I agree either empty chamber or cocked and locked .I personally carry cocked and locked . Giv'n a situation , you might not have enough time to chamber a round ...!

For new 1911 carriers ,you might want to carry your 1911 for a week cocked and locked with no ammo in the gun .atleast around the house or in area's where you won't need protection .

this will allow you to get comfortable and confident with the cocked and locked method ....!


always think safety ........!

 

[M29since14]

I always thought it was so you could safely lower the hammer by putting your left thumb between the hammer and frame and gently lowering the hammer to the notch and then pulling the trigger with hammer under left thumb control so the hammer rested on the frame. Was this Mr. Brownings design intention?

I don't think so, but don't presume to speak for "the greatest firearms inventor the world has ever known."

This question has been coming up since I was a small boy, and probably forever before that. I was always told that the "safety intercept notch" served two purposes. First, to catch the hammer if accidentally released when manually cocking the pistol, and second, to keep the pistol from discharging in the event of wear or damage to the hammer or sear contact surfaces. (Among other defects.) Since Mr. Browning is not available, someone please correct me on this if this is not the case.

Obviously, on a 1911, there is no logical reason to ever lower the hammer on a loaded chamber, thus there is never any reason to be manually cocking the hammer, either. If reason #1 (above) seems curious in view of this, remember that Browning's original design had no safety lock. On a 1911, if the gun is not being fired, the safety lock should be engaged, or the gun unloaded.

Referring to the feature as a "half-cock notch" may be descriptive, but on the 1911 it is distinctly unlike the feature of the SAA, which allows the piece to be conveniently loaded/unloaded.

To get back to the OP's final question, as others have said, it is definitely not used in any attempt to safely carry a loaded gun.

 

[John Sobieski]

when all else fails

I am most familiar with Series 80 Colt 1911s. According to the Series 80 manual, Colt calls the "half cock" the "The Safety Stop on Hammer." The safety stop isn't a safety that you apply by hand; it is there in case the primary sear fails. The safety stop will catch the hammer if the sear fails and prevent uncontrolled automatic fire. It also prevents the gun from firing if your hand slips while cocking the hammer.

Like others have said, you can't pull the trigger when the sear is in the half-cock notch - it won't release.

On the Series 80 Colt, the hammer will fall from the "half cock" position when you pull the trigger.

 

[johngalt]

On the Series 80 Colt, the hammer will fall from the "half cock" position when you pull the trigger.

Interesting, I don't have a series 80 colt, so I didn't know that.

In any case, the half catch notch is to catch the hammer in case it slips off the sear. This can happen if the hammer has been butchered in an attempt to do a trigger job.

Under no circumstances is there ever a reason to manually cock the hammer, as it should never be lowered on a chambered round.

 

[John Sobieski]

Off the mantelpiece

Under no circumstances is there ever a reason to manually cock the hammer, as it should never be lowered on a chambered round.

johngalt,

I agree with you, and I won't store or carry a 1911 with the hammer down on an loaded chamber. I see no advantage to that condition ("Condition Two"), and great risk pulling the trigger of a fully-loaded pistol in order to lower the hammer for storage or carry.

However, not everyone agrees with us.

Jeff Cooper wrote the following in To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth: "Many people, myself included, prefer a pistol in a desk drawer or glove compartment to rest in Condition Two. (I should note here that Bruce Nelson, who knows as much about serious pistolcraft as anyone, never uses Condition Two. I do not fault him, but I like the hammer on an untended pistol to be all the way down - possibly because I am used to houses full of children.) It is easy enough to cock a single-action pistol as you pick it up - you do not "quick draw" off the mantelpiece - but trigger-cocking might just be a help under these peculiar circumstances."

I have always enjoyed imagining Jeff Cooper's loaded 1911 resting hammer down on his mantelpiece! I wonder if the Colt's "half-cock" ever kept his pistol from firing as he lowered the hammer?

 

[johngalt]

I have always enjoyed imagining Jeff Cooper's loaded 1911 resting hammer down on his mantelpiece! I wonder if the Colt's "half-cock" ever kept his pistol from firing as he lowered the hammer?

I doubt the half-cock notch will stop an AD/ND when lowering the hammer. In order to lower the hammer, you have to pull the trigger. If the hammer slips while the trigger is held back, the half-cock notch won't stop it.

 

[John Sobieski]

Probably Not

I doubt the half-cock notch will stop an AD/ND when lowering the hammer. In order to lower the hammer, you have to pull the trigger. If the hammer slips while the trigger is held back, the half-cock notch won't stop it.

On a Series 80, you can pull the trigger, release it after the hammer clears the sear and then lower the hammer to "half cock" notch.

Using this method, the hammer would be stopped by the "half cock" if I lost my grip on the hammer as I lowered it. I wouldn't use this method, but it could allow you a two stage process to bring the hammer all the way down -first to half cock, and then all the way down. By the way, the fall from the Safety Stop on the Hammer if you pull the trigger is very short, and almost certainly too short to generate a sufficient blow to the firing pin to actually fire a live chambered round.

However, as you say, if you hold the trigger back, the "half cock" won't stop the hammer's fall.

 

[Nathan Forrest]

I was taught when lowering the hammer that the left thumb was placed in front of the hammer as an extra safeguard as you squeezed then released the trigger holding the hammer with the right thumb and lowering it to half cock. From half cock the trigger is pulled again right thumb still on hammer and the left thumb is s l o w l y eased away to allow the hammer to reach the frame under right thumb control..

 

[OKFC05]

I was taught when lowering the hammer that the left thumb was placed in front of the hammer as an extra safeguard as you squeezed then released the trigger holding the hammer with the right thumb and lowering it to half cock. From half cock the trigger is pulled again right thumb still on hammer and the left thumb is s l o w l y eased away to allow the hammer to reach the frame under right thumb control..

I'm curious what agency/instructor taught such a "careful" method for performing an act that according to the Colt manual "is inherently dangerous and should never be done"?
I'm not being glib, I'm serous.

 

[John Sobieski]

I was taught when lowering the hammer that the left thumb was placed in front of the hammer as an extra safeguard as you squeezed then released the trigger holding the hammer with the right thumb and lowering it to half cock. From half cock the trigger is pulled again right thumb still on hammer and the left thumb is s l o w l y eased away to allow the hammer to reach the frame under right thumb control..

Your two step process sounds like a prudent approach to lowering the hammer.

Juggling the grip safety, hammer and trigger requires too much dexterity for me to be comfortable with lowering the hammer on a live round. I can't control the hammer with my right thumb while at the same time engaging the grip safety sufficiently with my right hand to pull the trigger to release the sear. I have to hold the hammer with my left hand while my right hand pulls the trigger.

I'm more comfortable either leaving the pistol cocked with the safety engaged with a live round in the chamber, or unloading the gun altogether.

 

[stiab]

Under no circumstances is there ever a reason to manually cock the hammer, as it should never be lowered on a chambered round.

I'm not a 1911 guy, although I do own one. The sentiment above has been expressed in this thread several times, seemingly from the perspective of having a negligent discharge if you screw up lowering the hammer. I can't see why that is a big deal, if you are an experienced revolver or lever action rifle shooter. How many millions of times in the last 110 years have deer hunters with Marlin and Winchester rifles had to lower the hammer on a live round when the deer disappears? Marlin now has a safety, maybe Winchester too, but not for the first 100 years. Is it more dangerous to lower the hammer on a live round in a 1911 than on a S&W revolver or a Winchester Model 94? I'm asking because it seems the same to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, thanks...

 

[TACC1]

stiab;
You have a good point, been doing the manual lowering on other
firearms, and don't see any probem with the 1911
When cleaning, or otherwise checking-out a 1911, I lower the hammer
manually. I've never had it slip. When at the range, I will sometimes
lower the hammer on a live round. I did it "just because" I wanted to see
if there was any difficulty involved. I've got small hands and use both for
this operation. This thread gave me an excuse to dig one out and clean
one; thanks.
TACC1

 

[johngalt]

I'm not a 1911 guy, although I do own one. The sentiment above has been expressed in this thread several times, seemingly from the perspective of having a negligent discharge if you screw up lowering the hammer. I can't see why that is a big deal, if you are an experienced revolver or lever action rifle shooter. How many millions of times in the last 110 years have deer hunters with Marlin and Winchester rifles had to lower the hammer on a live round when the deer disappears? Marlin now has a safety, maybe Winchester too, but not for the first 100 years. Is it more dangerous to lower the hammer on a live round in a 1911 than on a S&W revolver or a Winchester Model 94? I'm asking because it seems the same to me. Correct me if I'm wrong, thanks...

I assume you are referring to lever-action rifles. I don't have one, all mine are autos or bolt action with no exposed hammer. I have no idea how complicated it is to lower the hammer.

My revolvers have lighter main springs (S&W revolvers use 18 lb springs, my 1911s I think are 23 lb). My revolvers have larger hammers and are easier to hold on to. They also don't have a grip safety, which is one less opportunity to slip. So I think it probably is easier to lower the hammer on a revolver than a 1911.

But you also have to consider the risk of a ND leaving it cocked vs. trying to uncock it. The risk of a ND of leaving a revolver cocked is significant - there is no safety, the sear/hammer engagement surfaces are small, only light pressure is needed to release it, and even a properly functioning hammer can push off. In this case, it might be safer to uncock it. But why was it cocked? If you weren't intending to fire, it shouldn't have been cocked in the first place.

A 1911 was designed to be carried condition 1. There is next to zero risk of a ND. The risk of a ND while uncocking it is much greater. If used defensively, now you have to manually cock before it can be fired. The consequences of fumbling it might be the last mistake you make. There is simply no good reason to lower the hammer on a loaded round.

The purpose of the trigger is to release the hammer and fire the weapon. Logically, the trigger should never be pulled on a loaded weapon unless the intent is to fire. IMHO, pulling the trigger on a loaded weapon without the intent to fire is negligent.

 

[stiab]

I assume you are referring to lever-action rifles.

My revolvers have larger hammers

A 1911 was designed to be carried condition 1.

No reason to assume, my post said..."lever action rifle shooter". I compared the hammer on my Colt 1911 to some S&W revolvers, and it is bigger than the hammers on my J frames, bigger than the hammer on my K frame Model 12 (which was made with more narrow hammer and trigger then the regular K frame), and the same size as the hammer on the rest of my K frames. I have never understood the condition 1 design part. It was designed especially for the US Army I believe, and their mode of carry was not condition 1, but with an empty chamber.

Anyway, your other points are very valid and I agree with them. I don't carry my 1911 so it doesn't matter to me about condition of carry, I just never understood why you hear 1911 folks talking about the dangers of lowering a hammer on a live round and you don't hear that talk about other guns.

 

[OKFC05]

I just never understood why you hear 1911 folks talking about the dangers of lowering a hammer on a live round and you don't hear that talk about other guns.

We cover it in hunter safety when talking about old lever rifles. They should not be carried with hammer down on a live round either, and can fire if dropped.

 

[stiab]

We cover it in hunter safety when talking about old lever rifles. They should not be carried with hammer down on a live round either, and can fire if dropped.

Right, the proper way to carry is at half cock. But with those rifles you still have to lower the hammer manually in many situations, no way around it.