1911 Half Notch

[Nathan Forrest]

So whats the purpose ? Is it a safety for concealed carry?

 

[Ron H.]

Sir, the half-cock notch is supposed to catch the hammer and prevent the gun from firing if (A) the hammer slips out from under your thumb before reaching full-cock or (B) the main sear notch fails.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

Correct. If the sear breaks, it's a safety so it doesn't discharge in your holster.

Don't carry it on the 1/2 cock position, you will damage the trigger pull / mess up the sear face in time.

 

[38-44HD45]

The gentlemen above have given you the correct answers. If you carry a 1911, carry cocked and locked. If you aren't comfortable with that, you should likely consider a different gun for carry, or spend enough range and trigger time with your 1911 to get comfortable.

 

[Centenniel]

The gentlemen above have given you the correct answers. If you carry a 1911, carry cocked and locked. If you aren't comfortable with that, you should likely consider a different gun for carry, or spend enough range and trigger time with your 1911 to get comfortable.

Very well said. Too many fail to understand the 1911 and do not carry it properly. A Glock works well for the "1911 challenged."

 

[cmort666]

A Glock works well for the "1911 challenged."

Don't bet on it. That's why they had to change the design of the box that it comes in. Too many people thought the instructions not to put a Glock with a round in the chamber into the old box was just a suggestion.

If you can't follow directions, a Glock is definitely NOT for you.

 

[Mediumbore]

Remember, the 1911 design was produced for the U.S. military during a time when "Cavalry" meant horses. Lot of jostling and jarring while the gun is being carried AND deployed. Some old time gunnies used to think the half-cock was a safe way to carry. Some of the same folks would tie off the grip safety also. Some of the same folks also shot themselves with their own guns. Chamber empty or cocked and locked are the original ways to carry the gun, and are still the only really safe methods.

 

[38-44HD45]

Don't bet on it. That's why they had to change the design of the box that it comes in. Too many people thought the instructions not to put a Glock with a round in the chamber into the old box was just a suggestion.

If you can't follow directions, a PISTOL is definitely NOT for you.

Made a slight change, Cmort. I think you might agree.

 

[cmort666]

Made a slight change, Cmort. I think you might agree.

While that's true, it's ESPECIALLY true of Glocks, and the person to whom I responded recommended Glocks for the "M1911 challenged".

A Glock is like the standard C programming language. C will do whatever it can do that you tell it to. Similarly, if you are careless of the trigger of a Glock, it WILL go off.

 

[Nathan Forrest]

I always thought it was so you could safely lower the hammer by putting your left thumb between the hammer and frame and gently lowering the hammer to the notch and then pulling the trigger with hammer under left thumb control so the hammer rested on the frame. Was this Mr. Brownings design intention?

 

[flop-shank]

It seems to me that the DA revolver is the way to go for the 1911 challenged.

 

[Ron H.]

I always thought it was so you could safely lower the hammer by putting your left thumb between the hammer and frame and gently lowering the hammer to the notch and then pulling the trigger with hammer under left thumb control so the hammer rested on the frame. Was this Mr. Brownings design intention?

Sir, no. From the original guns up through Colt's Series 70, the half-cock notch captures the sear nose, and pulling the trigger will not release it unless you break either the sear or the half-cock notch.

In Colt's Series 80 1911s, the half-cock notch was redesigned into a "step" that can be used as you describe, though it's not advisable.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[Nathan Forrest]

It seems to me that the DA revolver is the way to go for the 1911 challenged.

Challenged??? Geezee Man cut me a little slack.

 

[DougE]

The one 1911 I own is based on the Colt series 70. As Ron H. stated, when it's in the half-cock notch the trigger will not release the hammer.
Mr. Browning's intentions regarding his design of the 1911 were for it to be carried cocked and locked and that is how I carry one.

 

[johngalt]

I always thought it was so you could safely lower the hammer by putting your left thumb between the hammer and frame and gently lowering the hammer to the notch and then pulling the trigger with hammer under left thumb control so the hammer rested on the frame. Was this Mr. Brownings design intention?

No.

Like others have said, you can't pull the trigger when the sear is in the half-cock notch - it won't release.

Also, the hammer should NEVER lowered on a chambered round.

 

[tops]

The firing pin on a 1911A1 is not long enough to reach the primer with the hammer down and a cartridge in the chamber. Will someone please tell me why it is unsafe to carry it with the chamber loaded and the hammer down. Larry

 

[Ron H.]

The firing pin on a 1911A1 is not long enough to reach the primer with the hammer down and a cartridge in the chamber. Will someone please tell me why it is unsafe to carry it with the chamber loaded and the hammer down. Larry

Sir, FWIW, I dislike Condition 2 for two main reasons.

Getting the hammer down on a loaded chamber in a 1911 requires that all the mechanical conditions to fire the gun be present, except for free hammer movement. Losing control of the hammer (and the 1911's hammer spur is small) can result in a bullet hole someplace you'd rather not have one.

From the carry perspective, Condition 2 is slow. The 1911 is not shaped well for thumb-cocking; it requires time and a good bit of dexterity. If you need to shoot quickly, that's a problem.

Hope this helps, and Semper Fi.

Ron H.

 

[flop-shank]

Challenged??? Geezee Man cut me a little slack.

My comment was in reference to an earlier post, #5. Although I would be comfortable carrying a 1911 cocked and locked, I prefer the simplicity of the DA revolver. So rest assured, "1911 challenged" applies to me as much as anyone.

I certainly understand what the 1911 is all about. People who carry them are willing to tolerate the array of safeties and a more complex manual of arms to get that great, glass rod-like trigger.

 

[tops]

The 1/2 cock notch was used on old hammer guns that didn't have rebounding hammers and the hammer rested on the firing pin and the firing pin was on the primer. In 1/2 cock the hammer was not on the firing pin and if something broke there was not susposed to be enough hammer fall to fire. Another reason for 1/2 cock in guns that didn't have rebounding hammers was to take pressure off the firing pins to avoid damage while unbreeching or to avoid discharge while breeching. The 1/2 cock does not serve a useful purpose on a Colt 1911A1 because the firing pin is not long enough to reach the primer with the hammer down. The 1/2 cock notch is an archaic carry over. As for it being unsafe to let the hammer down on a unloaded round, I have saw all kinds of guns fire when the guns were closed. Auto loaders when the bolt or slide is let go, pumps when the slide is pushed forward, SXS and O/U when they are closed (hammer and hammerless) even bolt action. Loaded guns should not be pointed where you don't want a hole. Larry

 

[Centenniel]

Don't bet on it. That's why they had to change the design of the box that it comes in. Too many people thought the instructions not to put a Glock with a round in the chamber into the old box was just a suggestion.

If you can't follow directions, a Glock is definitely NOT for you.

My comment was in reference to those who are uncomfortable with cocked and locked carry. The manual of arms for the Glock pistols is simpler than that of a 1911 style pistol. I don't own a Glock, but am well versed in their use and characteristics. I think we can all agree that any gun must be understood to be carried safely and that safe gun handling rules always apply.

 

[cmort666]

My comment was in reference to those who are uncomfortable with cocked and locked carry. The manual of arms for the Glock pistols is simpler than that of a 1911 style pistol.

Simple enough to get stupid people killed.

I keep hearing about people shooting themselves holstering their Glocks. It happened to one of the NASA Lewis guards while I worked there. I don't know how you can do that and not do it with a S&W Model 10, but they manage it anyway.

Glocks are simple guns that rely entirely on the common sense of the user. That makes them much easier to shoot well than other semi-auto handguns, especially the D/A only guns with 2,000lb. triggers with 10' of travel.

I regularly carry a Glock 19 or a Glock 22, but I'm VERY serious about trigger discipline. There are some people who aren't, and they get in trouble with Glocks... sometimes only once.

 

[Chubbs103]

I will go ahead and jump on this one, even though it has been pretty well covered. The 1911 should be in one of the following conditions: empty chamber, cocked and locked, or firing down range. I don't recommend trying to take it outside of these conditions. There are plenty of other pistols designs if this doesn't fit the bill.

The half-cock notch will prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin if you are manually cocking the weapon on a loaded chamber. Of course you shouldn't have found yourself in this condition to begin with.

The half-cock notch will prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin if you are lowering the hammer with a very disciplined trigger finger and got your bugger picker off of the bang switch as soon as the hammer released from full-cock. I can confirm this works with thr BHP as it saved me from an AD long ago. I'm still not shure why I was lowering the hammer over a chambered round as I knew better even then. Do not put yourself in this position. Do not lower the hammer on a chambered round period (I realize there are plenty that do. Flame away.).

The half-cock notch will prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin if the sear breaks while the frame-mounted manual safety is off.

Hope this helps.

Chubbs

 

[Centenniel]

cmort666,

You omitted the most important part of my post in the quote you included above. Here is what I said:

"My comment was in reference to those who are uncomfortable with cocked and locked carry. The manual of arms for the Glock pistols is simpler than that of a 1911 style pistol. I don't own a Glock, but am well versed in their use and characteristics. I think we can all agree that any gun must be understood to be carried safely and that safe gun handling rules always apply."

The last sentence is key. I believe that it is in agreement with your statement about the trigger.

A friend of mine once shot himself through the thigh with a 1911. He was trying to lower the hammer on a loaded pistol with his finger on the trigger. Most firearms related accidents are caused by ignorance or carelessness. We should not be guilty of either. No firearms design, in itself, can safeguard a person against ignorance or carelessness. Guns that actually work aren't foolproof.

 

[flop-shank]

I keep hearing about people shooting themselves holstering their Glocks. I don't know how you can do that and not do it with a S&W Model 10, but they manage it anyway.

Reholstering a DA revolver with an exposed hammer is safer than many pistols, at least in theory, because you can put your thumb right on the hammer as you push the gun into the holster. The revolver's longer heavier trigger is a plus also.

Glocks are simple guns that rely entirely on the common sense of the user. That makes them much easier to shoot well than other semi-auto handguns, especially the D/A only guns with 2,000lb. triggers with 10' of travel.

Yes they are easier to shoot well, but speaking for myself, the very trigger that makes them easier than the DA revolvers I prefer gets rid of the "fudge factor" that makes DA revolvers the guns that I would rather live with.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[gunnut2u]

I agree either empty chamber or cocked and locked .I personally carry cocked and locked . Giv'n a situation , you might not have enough time to chamber a round ...!

For new 1911 carriers ,you might want to carry your 1911 for a week cocked and locked with no ammo in the gun .atleast around the house or in area's where you won't need protection .

this will allow you to get comfortable and confident with the cocked and locked method ....!


always think safety ........!

 

[M29since14]

I always thought it was so you could safely lower the hammer by putting your left thumb between the hammer and frame and gently lowering the hammer to the notch and then pulling the trigger with hammer under left thumb control so the hammer rested on the frame. Was this Mr. Brownings design intention?

I don't think so, but don't presume to speak for "the greatest firearms inventor the world has ever known."

This question has been coming up since I was a small boy, and probably forever before that. I was always told that the "safety intercept notch" served two purposes. First, to catch the hammer if accidentally released when manually cocking the pistol, and second, to keep the pistol from discharging in the event of wear or damage to the hammer or sear contact surfaces. (Among other defects.) Since Mr. Browning is not available, someone please correct me on this if this is not the case.

Obviously, on a 1911, there is no logical reason to ever lower the hammer on a loaded chamber, thus there is never any reason to be manually cocking the hammer, either. If reason #1 (above) seems curious in view of this, remember that Browning's original design had no safety lock. On a 1911, if the gun is not being fired, the safety lock should be engaged, or the gun unloaded.

Referring to the feature as a "half-cock notch" may be descriptive, but on the 1911 it is distinctly unlike the feature of the SAA, which allows the piece to be conveniently loaded/unloaded.

To get back to the OP's final question, as others have said, it is definitely not used in any attempt to safely carry a loaded gun.

 

[John Sobieski]

when all else fails

I am most familiar with Series 80 Colt 1911s. According to the Series 80 manual, Colt calls the "half cock" the "The Safety Stop on Hammer." The safety stop isn't a safety that you apply by hand; it is there in case the primary sear fails. The safety stop will catch the hammer if the sear fails and prevent uncontrolled automatic fire. It also prevents the gun from firing if your hand slips while cocking the hammer.

Like others have said, you can't pull the trigger when the sear is in the half-cock notch - it won't release.

On the Series 80 Colt, the hammer will fall from the "half cock" position when you pull the trigger.

 

[johngalt]

On the Series 80 Colt, the hammer will fall from the "half cock" position when you pull the trigger.

Interesting, I don't have a series 80 colt, so I didn't know that.

In any case, the half catch notch is to catch the hammer in case it slips off the sear. This can happen if the hammer has been butchered in an attempt to do a trigger job.

Under no circumstances is there ever a reason to manually cock the hammer, as it should never be lowered on a chambered round.

 

[John Sobieski]

Off the mantelpiece

Under no circumstances is there ever a reason to manually cock the hammer, as it should never be lowered on a chambered round.

johngalt,

I agree with you, and I won't store or carry a 1911 with the hammer down on an loaded chamber. I see no advantage to that condition ("Condition Two"), and great risk pulling the trigger of a fully-loaded pistol in order to lower the hammer for storage or carry.

However, not everyone agrees with us.

Jeff Cooper wrote the following in To Ride, Shoot Straight, and Speak the Truth: "Many people, myself included, prefer a pistol in a desk drawer or glove compartment to rest in Condition Two. (I should note here that Bruce Nelson, who knows as much about serious pistolcraft as anyone, never uses Condition Two. I do not fault him, but I like the hammer on an untended pistol to be all the way down - possibly because I am used to houses full of children.) It is easy enough to cock a single-action pistol as you pick it up - you do not "quick draw" off the mantelpiece - but trigger-cocking might just be a help under these peculiar circumstances."

I have always enjoyed imagining Jeff Cooper's loaded 1911 resting hammer down on his mantelpiece! I wonder if the Colt's "half-cock" ever kept his pistol from firing as he lowered the hammer?

 

[johngalt]

I have always enjoyed imagining Jeff Cooper's loaded 1911 resting hammer down on his mantelpiece! I wonder if the Colt's "half-cock" ever kept his pistol from firing as he lowered the hammer?

I doubt the half-cock notch will stop an AD/ND when lowering the hammer. In order to lower the hammer, you have to pull the trigger. If the hammer slips while the trigger is held back, the half-cock notch won't stop it.