1915 mint Luger

[SF VET]

About 35+ years ago, my now deceased father in law and went to a gun show in Topeka, KS. He bought 3 Lugers for $1,100, one a perfect '44 BYF, for which I located a WWII era flap holster. I shot it a few times, and then he ended up selling it for a "profit" to a small town Pastor. That Man of God long ago came down with Alzheimers, and his widow still has that pistol. As far as i know.

The other two were all gold plated, shiny, all "bling", and I had no interest in a gold and shiny Luger, so never asked him about them. I didn't see them for decades. He died about 5 years ago, and my wife and I went back to help "clean out" his tools and stuff and his two remaining Lugers, and a few other firearms.

It was only then that after examinging this 1915 Luger, and doing a little research, realized it wasn't "gold" bling, but straw bluing, about which i knew nothing. The other early similar pistol was no where to be found, so he must had sold it in the intervening years.

So, here it is. It is perfect, not a mar or scratch, or handling mark. The grips are worn, and the mag has a wooden base, and I don't know anything about vintage Luger mags. I just oiled it, and ran a patch down the barrel, which came out spotless. I have not shot it nor intend to. I actually have given it to my son for his collection; I just occasionally bring his firearms over to my place to clean and oil them. I also have the WWII holster with the little tool for it. I also got his Belgian 243 BAR, which he shot all of three times, two to zero, the third for a deer. My brother in law got the Damascus double, a 30-06 Auto, and my father in law's prized LC Smith double.

I still hope to someday buy the BYF gun from the widow. About 15 years ago, I bought his '43 Springfield, pefect Garand.

The "bling" Luger. SF VET
[url=https://postimg.cc/9DhF05Sy] [/URL]

 

[jeeps]

Looks re-blued,finish should be dull rust blue.

 

[AJ]

Try these guys: Military Handgun Forum | Gunboards Forums

Blinged out shooter as it has been putz'd with and reblued. Will need close ups to get a better set of answers.

 

[diyj98]

I agree. From the photo it looks reblued and polished or plated parts.

 

[swagmeister]

I agree with reblued opinions. Most of the collector value is unfortunately gone because of this.

 

[mauser9]

Does look reblued but still worth some good money in this day and age of German milsurp weapons. Days of cheap are long gone

 

[AJ]

Does look reblued but still worth some good money in this day and age of German milsurp weapons. Days of cheap are long gone

It is a shooter grade. No collector value to it. May be worth more for the parts that are in it, as they are hard to come by if something breaks. Sad, but true.

 

[Heinz]

I would have to see many more pictures before I commented on value. A "shooter" Luger with all matching numbers in good operating order is going to bring 800 to 1000 dollars, so it is not something to scoff at

 

[AJ]

I would have to see many more pictures before I commented on value. A "shooter" Luger with all matching numbers in good operating order is going to bring 800 to 1000 dollars, so it is not something to scoff at

Put it up on Gunbroker and see where it goes. Hopefully, two folks want it badly!

 

[Heinz]

I would NOT put a Luger on Gunbroker. There is way too much to check on a Luger to know what you have and I think GB Lugers get low prices, except when they are faked. I would use Simpsons LTD website as a reference and knock off 10 to 15% as they are a bit high but very reliable. They also take consignments.

Hard to tell much from the posted photo. Although my rule of thumb is that bad gun photos are often intentional. From the existing photo my guess it is badly over-buffed and then tank-blued instead of rust-blued. It does not show the military acceptance and proof marks on the receiver and the machining marks in the ears do not show. If the strawed parts look like gold plating they have also been monkied with. Still probably get 800 on GB

 

[SF VET]

appreciate the above comments. It does have a gorgeous blueing. As for military acceptance marks, did the manufacturer make commercial pistols? I could try a different camera, but the gun is so glossy that it is hard to get a picture of it. Someday i may do some searching on early Lugers. SF VET

 

[AJ]

appreciate the above comments. It does have a gorgeous blueing. As for military acceptance marks, did the manufacturer make commercial pistols? I could try a different camera, but the gun is so glossy that it is hard to get a picture of it. Someday i may do some searching on early Lugers. SF VET

Germany was at war in 1915, so was probably a military gun. Take as clear as possible pictures and post them. Someone will be along to let you know what you have.

 

[peterdeb]

IMHO shooter grade Lugers are closer to $1800 - $2000 these days.

 

[diyj98]

I know values can vary by area, but I sold an 80%, but all matching DWM 1917 with extra non matching magazine with reproduction holster for $1,500 last week and it was a slow sale. I sold an all matching except for magazine DWM for $1,200. Mismatched and/or refinished examples can be found a good bit cheaper.

 

[cmansguns]

Should not be a 44 byf either

I don't believe there ever was a 1944 byf Luger. byf was the code Germany used for the Mauser Werks in Oberndorf Germany. I used to collect Lugers and my old research reflects that the very last Luger produced by Mauser was serial number 9244, "i" block, and that was made in November 1942. By February 1942 Mauser Werks had already started conversion to the less expensive P-38.

The military marks you would be looking for are depicted in the pics below of my 1941 byf ("y" block= late 1941) "Black Widow" Luger that I sold some 5 years ago for $2,600.

Very good, friendly help on anything Luger can be had over on Jan Still's Axis Powers Forum. Those guys (and gals) are just like this Forum...the knowledge and assistance is tremendous (and free to boot)

Note that the straw bluing does not appear like gold plating at all. Another hint on Lugers (and maybe other guns as well...I don't know for positive) is to look for the "halo" around the top stampings....reblued guns will NOT have the halo.

 

[SF VET]

just watched a video about commercial early Lugers hosted by Legacy Collectables. Then sat with my Luger and tried to learn more about it. Mag has a wooden base, but no other markings. Really hardly any marks other serial numbers on all the parts. Has a small Eagle only just above the "hinge" on the front of the toggle part. Nothing else to speak of. The numbers are not buffed out, very crisp and clear, but sure looks like mine has a much more shiny and deep blueing than the ones in the video. No "halo" that I can see. As for the date on the war time pistol, I haven't seen it for 30 years, and only remember it was a war time date, may have been a '42 and not a '44. Thanks for the suggestions about sources for further information. Other than the mfg crest and the serial numbers, the ONLY marking is the above mentioned tiny eagle. I will see if I can find out more.

regardless of value, I don't plan on shootinng it, and wont sell it, as it is a connection to my deceased WWII hero father in law. He treated me like his ownn son. Miss him. SF VET

 

[2152hq]

appreciate the above comments.

..... As for military acceptance marks, did the manufacturer make commercial pistols? ..... SF VET

DWM made 'Commercial' pistols. They were ser#'d in a separate range.
I don't believe the Commercial Lugers had the detachable butt stock rails on the backstrap,,but maybe some did.

The ser#'d parts on a Commercial sale gun are stamped in different locations than a Military contract pistol and on fewer parts than the Military guns.
The most noticeable (or not) would be the Side Plate ser#.
On a Military the ser# is boldly stamped on the outer face of the plate, can't miss it unless it's been purposely removed.
On a Commercial sale pistol, the side plate ser# is on the short flat area underneath by the trigger. You have to turn the pistol upside-down in hand to see it.

IIRC the only other German maker of the Luger in 1915 would have been their Erfurt Arsenal. A Govt Arsenal.
No Commercial Sale guns from there I don't think.
Most Erfurt Lugers have a distinctive small 'flat' cut into the top front edge of the receiver ring.
That small flat is for use when the pistol frame is made into an Artillery Luger (LP08). The adj rear sight sits down into that machined cut.
In 1914 I think it was, Erfurt started machining that small cut into all the frames as they were made not knowing if the frame would be used on a P08 or a LP08.
So the standard short bbl'd Lugers from Erfurt have the Artillery Luger rear sight cut on their frame as well from that date forward..

I don't see that cut on the frame of the pistol here. So I would guess it's at least a DWM P08 (Military) frame from 1915 (if that is what is stamped on the top of the ring.

With no ser#'s left on the small parts and Proofs, inspector marks etc gone (I assume) and then refinished as well, it can be very difficult to tell what is orig to the gun and what is not.

The Magazine is a WW1 or Inter-War period magazine.
Normally the pistols ser# would be stamped on the bottom of the wooden base.
The Extra matching magazine for that pistol would also have the guns ser# stamped there along with a '+' to indicate it's the spare or extra mag.

The grips should be stamped inside with a/the pistols ser#.

They can be made all new looking again with work. It takes a lot of polishing to straighten things out and knowing what grit it correct and what direction of polish in what areas.
There are hand stamps available to re-mark whats missing or can be hand engraved back in position.
On WW1 lugers especially, many times the frame, toggle & breechblocks have to be annealed first before that can be accomplished as many are extremely hard. Erfurt's being the worse.
Slow Rust Blued finish for these older ones with proper parts being bright polished afterwards.
Certain small parts 'Straw' colored depending on the era of mfg.
Then the grips look out of place so they end up getting spiffed up too.

A lot of it is done to simply upgrade guns for resale, the buyer not knowing most of the time.

 

[AJ]

DWM made 'Commercial' pistols. They were ser#'d in a separate range.
I don't believe the Commercial Lugers had the detachable butt stock rails on the backstrap,,but maybe some did.

The ser#'d parts on a Commercial sale gun are stamped in different locations than a Military contract pistol and on fewer parts than the Military guns.
The most noticeable (or not) would be the Side Plate ser#.
On a Military the ser# is boldly stamped on the outer face of the plate, can't miss it unless it's been purposely removed.
On a Commercial sale pistol, the side plate ser# is on the short flat area underneath by the trigger. You have to turn the pistol upside-down in hand to see it.

IIRC the only other German maker of the Luger in 1915 would have been their Erfurt Arsenal. A Govt Arsenal.
No Commercial Sale guns from there I don't think.
Most Erfurt Lugers have a distinctive small 'flat' cut into the top front edge of the receiver ring.
That small flat is for use when the pistol frame is made into an Artillery Luger (LP08). The adj rear sight sits down into that machined cut.
In 1914 I think it was, Erfurt started machining that small cut into all the frames as they were made not knowing if the frame would be used on a P08 or a LP08.
So the standard short bbl'd Lugers from Erfurt have the Artillery Luger rear sight cut on their frame as well from that date forward..

I don't see that cut on the frame of the pistol here. So I would guess it's at least a DWM P08 (Military) frame from 1915 (if that is what is stamped on the top of the ring.

With no ser#'s left on the small parts and Proofs, inspector marks etc gone (I assume) and then refinished as well, it can be very difficult to tell what is orig to the gun and what is not.

The Magazine is a WW1 or Inter-War period magazine.
Normally the pistols ser# would be stamped on the bottom of the wooden base.
The Extra matching magazine for that pistol would also have the guns ser# stamped there along with a '+' to indicate it's the spare or extra mag.

The grips should be stamped inside with a/the pistols ser#.

They can be made all new looking again with work. It takes a lot of polishing to straighten things out and knowing what grit it correct and what direction of polish in what areas.
There are hand stamps available to re-mark whats missing or can be hand engraved back in position.
On WW1 lugers especially, many times the frame, toggle & breechblocks have to be annealed first before that can be accomplished as many are extremely hard. Erfurt's being the worse.
Slow Rust Blued finish for these older ones with proper parts being bright polished afterwards.
Certain small parts 'Straw' colored depending on the era of mfg.
Then the grips look out of place so they end up getting spiffed up too.

A lot of it is done to simply upgrade guns for resale, the buyer not knowing most of the time.

See, I figured someone would come along that knew more than the rest of us combined!

 

[SF VET]

Thanks to 2152 and others above. Here, a few slightly better pics, on some the reflection makes it look like some of the pistol is matte, but it all highly polished and blued from long ago with some of my light oil shining here and there. I doubt I will ever know much about my Luger, but it is a nice pistol non the less. Thanks, SF VET

 

[murphydog]

Cool gun and a great family story!

Often, the wear on associated parts of a gun (like the stocks, if original) are a clue to a possible refinish.

Personally, I would see no problem with replacing the century-plus old springs and firing off a few rounds from it. Your father-in-law might approve.

 

[2152hq]

Looks like a straight up DWN mfg 1915 Military P08 .
All the ser#'s that I can see do match.
There are other parts that are ser#'d that you must disassemble to see the ser#.
Grips should be stamped with the # on the back side.

I shoot the Lugers I have all the time. I use mostly rem/UMC 115gr FMJ RN ammo. Nothing special. It seems to make most any Luger in decent shape work well. I believe the orig ammo for these used a truncated cone shaped bullet FMJ . They are probably still available in a cast bullet but I don't know about a jacketed.
..and though you will hear lots of people say these need to be loaded 'hot' to function correctly, that is not true.
A standard 9mm load will usually do the trick.

Most problems with them are usually with the magazine.
I usually expect a FT Feed once in a while. They are just range toys after all.

I have one or two that are fussy and don't function as cleanly as the others. But even the oldest, a 1906 Commercial feeds and functions just fine with the above ammo and even my lead RN reloads.
The newest in age is a BYF so called Black Widow. It likes the same ammo.

I've had these a long time.
The BYF was $100 w/ holster, xmag and tool. All matching about 95+%
The 1906 Commercial was $200 r $250 with a stainless steel Haenal Schmeisser 'one piece' mag.
Those were good times for sure.


I've changed out springs in Lugers for other people, but to tell you the truth I've never replaced any in my own pistols. Just the orig springs and everything works fine.
If the springs have been altered,,then do replace them with orig spec ones.
The Main Toggle Main Spring (coil spring on the 'New Models which these are) can be a bear to remove and replace but using some thought it's not aall that hard.
Wear eye protection of course.

Old Model Lugers use a Flat Main Spring and those early Lugers I would leave to the collectors and not shoot much at all. Parts are different in many ways and orig replacement parts are very hard to find.

Leave the Ejector alone if it's doing it's job OK. It is it's own spring in the form of a flat machined and shaped ejector. Heat treated as a spring and the back end is dove tail fitted into the upper frame.
To remove you have to bend it outward from the inside till the claw clears the frame. Then tap the entire piece forward and out of it's rear end dovetail attachment.
No real reason to unless it's broken, the claw is not grasping the case correctly and needs reshaping (rare) or you are restoring the gun and need to work on it.

Careful removing the Hold Open latch from the Frame.
It sits in an L shaped cut on the top of the frame just behind the magazine well.
It's powered by a fragile very small Flat Spring that fits under a pin on the side of the L shaped cut on the side.
Bend that flat spring just a bit more than needed and it WILL break.

The pistol will actually work (hold open after the last shot) if that small spring is broken or missing as long as the Hold Open LAtch itself is still there.
The mag button pushes the latch up into position to hold the Toggle open. That spring is what pulls it back down out of the way when the Toggle is again pulled to the rear on a loaded mag or no mag in the gun.
But Gravity will also drop the Hold Open Latch just as well doing the same thing.

Don't try to remove a bbl from a Luger frame unless you have a very well fitting action wrench. One that fits all the curves and spline/rail cuts of the frame exactly. Plus a BBl vise that can grip and hold that tapered bbl correctly.
It is very easy to damage the Luger upper when trying to remove the bbl.

Shooter Lugers are great fun.
Mine make the range quite often.
Looks like you have a good one..

 

[Golddollar]

With the chrome plating on my shooter Luger it would probably make a collector gag. But I know being able to shoot it made the day of the range officer at the indoor range when he asked it he could shoot it and I was more than happy to let him do it.

 

[AJ]

With the chrome plating on my shooter Luger it would probably make a collector gag. But I know being able to shoot it made the day of the range officer at the indoor range when he asked it he could shoot it and I was more than happy to let him do it.

Picked up one like that about 15 years ago for $400. Got a gallon of denickeler from Brownells. Then parked it. Looked good. Sold it to a guy for a shooter/parts gun. I hated the trigger on it.

 

[boykinlp]

It was only then that after examinging this 1915 Luger, and doing a little research, realized it wasn't "gold" bling, but straw bluing, about which i knew nothing. The other early similar pistol was no where to be found, so he must had sold it in the intervening years.

I always wanted a Luger, and got a 1920's DWM Commercial Rig last year. This is a near-mint example of a DWM Luger sold in the commercial market in the 1920's and chambered in .30 Luger or 7.65mm Luger. It is all matching in the commercial semi-concealed fashion, has the proper "Crown N" commercial proofs, and has a "Germany" export marking on the right side of the slide, indicating it was intended for sale in the international market, likely the US. It has a 3 3/4 inch barrel. The end of the muzzle is in the white as a 1920's commercial pistol should be. All the correct small parts are "strawed", and it has fire-blued grip screws and front sight. The serial number and letter suffix on the barrel, and on the rear of the toggle, has the proper halo effect, and raised edges, showing it was done after the gun was originally rust blued. The matching serial number and suffix on the fame doesn't have those characteristics because it was done before the rust bluing. The gun has retained nearly all of its original bluing with areas of very minor wear on some of the high edges and around the muzzle. The bore has strong rifling with very minor pin-pricking throughout.

I wanted one of these specifically because of the strawed parts. I think they look amazing.
Larry