I have a 1917 US marked S&W, that also has English proofs and "Not English Make" on it. I presume it was a WW1 gun that then was sent to England in WW2 for British use under lend lease. The gun is like new, except for surface scrathes where it was probably piled up with other guns. To me this gun is interesting, but how does English WW2 use and the markings effect its value?
1917 .45 Lend Lease
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I have a 1917 US marked S&W, that also has English proofs and "Not English Make" on it. I presume it was a WW1 gun that then was sent to England in WW2 for British use under lend lease. The gun is like new, except for surface scrathes where it was probably piled up with other guns. To me this gun is interesting, but how does English WW2 use and the markings effect its value?
cgt4570
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This was it's actual service history, so in my opinion, it shouldn't hurt its value much. They were only a little over 20 years old when they were re-arsenal'd for us and the Brits.
popgun
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Your gun is not necessarily lend-lease. But it definitely spent some time it British service. The Proof marks and "Not English Make" are required by english law on guns for export out of England. Also many guns went to England as private donations even the NRA collected guns for the re-arming of Briton. Does your revolver have any broad arrow proof marks, as these denote british military service.
spurs,
Does yours look like this one?
Does yours look like this one?
popgun
Member
If it dosen't have broad arrow proof marks, it is not lend-lease. Most likley Home Guard, or private war donation. Lots of history there. a Keeper. Any import marks or importer name?
I have a British-proofed S&W 1917. It has proof marks in each exterior division between the chambers. Evidently they proofed each individual chamber. I suspect it was a lend-lease job, but I don't know for sure.
popgun
Member
Lend-lease was enacted by congress and had strick rules so we could send arms to the brits and still stay a neutral contry. But that did not stop the private solicatation of arms from private individuals. Ads were in all of the media of the day. The NRA sponcered a gun drive and ran ads in it's magazine. How these gun got to England would probably fill volumes. The point is that all lend lease guns had to be marked U.S Property, Even though your gun fills this requirement it was not marked that way origanaly for that purpose, But to have been Lend lease it has to be accepted by the Britsh Government, so it would have Broad Arrow acceptance marks that were required by the Brits. The marks your gun bears just mean it left Brition some time after the war, as they are export marks. The fact that it does not have an Import mark or name means It was brought into the US before the 1968 law change. It could have already been in England since the wwi even. Does all this ad to or change it's value? Thats also a complicated answer.
cgt4570
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This was a requirement of British law when guns were exported back from Britain to the US after WW2.
Tom Doniphon
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I don't believe all of the guns sent to Great Britain were marked with the Broad Arrow. There are many examples of revolvers with British or Canadian marks (such as "RAF" for Royal Air Force and the like) that are devoid of the Broad Arrow.
And, I'm not so sure Lend Lease firearms were marked with a Broad Arrow. Certainly all were not so marked. One example of this are the M1 Garands Lend Leased to Great Britain. I've never seen one with a Broad Arrow mark on it.
And, I'm not so sure Lend Lease firearms were marked with a Broad Arrow. Certainly all were not so marked. One example of this are the M1 Garands Lend Leased to Great Britain. I've never seen one with a Broad Arrow mark on it.
popgun
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Tom is correct not all guns sent to England got marked, As officers were permited to provide there own Arms and some that went into special units were not stamped. Also it was war time and the rules breakdown, anything is possible. But to debate this pistol's providance on the current evidence, I don't belive it's an example of a Lend-lease gun. Because it was made way before the 2nd world war and could have entered Briton anytime. The only British Proof Marks are export marks. The gun could have come back to the U.S. after WWI and not seen WWII service at all. None of this can be proven, but it adds historical value to the gun. Whats that mean in $, I don't know but history is very interestng and helps keep my interest in our heritage of firearms alive. One more thing to remember lend lease ended when we entered the war. And then became foreign aid after the war.
Tom Doniphon
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I have a Model 1917 with British proof marks just like the other two described above. It also has a crown over "AM" which I have been told is the British Air Ministry mark.
powerkicker
Member
What's going on between the stop-notches on the cylinder of the gun pictured above? I've never seen anything like that...
spurs,
I've seen 3 or 4 of these with the finish very similar to mine. Those pesky Brits didn't seem to take very good care of other folks property. They also stamped the heck out of these; mine has 11 English stampings on it! The eagle heads with the numbers are US inspectors marks from the factory, as is the flaming bomb on the left side of the frame. Mine was made a little too late to be issued during WWI. If it was issued by the Brits in WWII, it spent the war in a desk. I figure it's worth $600-$800, which is really low for a WWI US handgun with lots of original finish and some serious history. Be patient, I would rate these a "strong hold or buy" and expect "their time" is yet to come! They are very cool; here's a Colt 1917 that the British didn't get their hands on!
I've seen 3 or 4 of these with the finish very similar to mine. Those pesky Brits didn't seem to take very good care of other folks property. They also stamped the heck out of these; mine has 11 English stampings on it! The eagle heads with the numbers are US inspectors marks from the factory, as is the flaming bomb on the left side of the frame. Mine was made a little too late to be issued during WWI. If it was issued by the Brits in WWII, it spent the war in a desk. I figure it's worth $600-$800, which is really low for a WWI US handgun with lots of original finish and some serious history. Be patient, I would rate these a "strong hold or buy" and expect "their time" is yet to come! They are very cool; here's a Colt 1917 that the British didn't get their hands on!
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Those are British proof marks (two different ones) alternating between each chamber (look at my third photo). Three proofs on the right side of the barrel, one on the right side of the frame, plus the "NOT ENGLISH MADE" with a zigzag border around it.
Thanks for all the information. These are really interesting guns, that were involved in who knows what adventures around the world. These are my favorite kind of guns, they are safe to shoot, and when you hold and fire them you wonder who else long ago held that very gun and maybe did something heroic with it.
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