1917 Brazilian Serial Number Question

[jetto66]

Hi
I picked up a 1917 brazilian contract gun today. While looking them up in the Standard Catalog, it says one has been reported as early as serial number 16974X. Mine is serial number 13021X, It has the crest and the 1937 date on it. My question is has anyone seen a fake brazilian contract gun, and if so why would someone do that? The cylinder and barrel have the same serial number and it has a CAI import stamp. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[DCWilson]

A few Brazilians are known with relatively low six-digit serial numbers. I would think your gun might be numbered unusually, but that doesn't mean it would be a fake. When S&W was putting together shipments for both the 1938 and 1946 orders, they cleaned out the storerooms for unshipped 1917s still in inventory and also made use of serial-numbered frames from the 1920s that had never been completely assembled. There are several posts in the archives about Brazilian numbering.

 

[k22fan]

S&W filled part of a 1946 shipment of 1937 Brazilians by using up left over WWI period frames. There have been many posts by owners reporting their 1937 Brazilian has a lower number than one source or another writes is the lowest. Yours is the lowest number that I can recall but I don't keep track and I'm no expert. It makes no sense to fake a 1937 Brazilian because they are one of the lowest priced of all the N frames that are still in original condition. Let us enjoy a picture of your Brazilian and many members will be interested to find such an early frame didn't get completed until 1946.

Edit to add: I didn't know any of the WWI era frames went to Brazil as model 1937s before WWII. I will defer to D C Wilson on that point.

 

[jetto66]

Heres a few pics, its missing the lanyard but I will put one on it.

 

[Hondo44]

jetto,
Nice find. With that low number, it's a bit hard to tell if it was from the '37 or '46 contract.

But if it has a square (flattened slightly) top it's likely from the '37 order, if it has the rounded top it's likely from the '46 order and therefore a leftover 1917 frame.

 

[handejector]

All of the Brazilians shipped in 38 for the original order are flat-top commercial frames.
The 1946 order was built on the older round top frames of WW I. Those frames were leftover rejects from WW I.
I have seen one numbered in the 60,000's, and I have heard rumors of 4 digit guns from the 46 order. I have no doubt they used any usable frame in filling that order.

 

[Jack Flash]

I think it would take a pretty low-knowledge faker to take an old S&W N-Frame and make a phony Brazilian out of it.

In its original condition it would surely be worth more.

Not that Brazilians are by any means a bad gun. They just do not seem to command the kind of prices other vintage N-Frames do. But in the next few years that may change.

 

[k22fan]

The reason for the relatively low prices on 1937 Brazilians is that they came into the country as inexpensive surplus less than 20 years ago. 1917s hit the surplus market roughly 40 years earlier. In the mid 1990s I could walk a 1937 Brazilian out the door of a retail store for $150 to $200.

Speaking of mid 1990s surplus my $170 OTD Argentine 1927 (licensed Colt 1911 copy) groups tight than a lot of $1,000 1911s, but that's a story for another forum.

 

[mrcvs]

What about a 1917 with the Brazilian stamp but no import stamp? Were many more produced than actually went out? I know of one in this country with just such a configuration. If it did not go out, as stamped, in 1938, any ideas where it may have gone?

 

[handejector]

What about a 1917 with the Brazilian stamp but no import stamp? Were many more produced than actually went out? I know of one in this country with just such a configuration. If it did not go out, as stamped, in 1938, any ideas where it may have gone?

It went to Brazil.
No stamp is no big deal. They brought in thousands. I have seen one or two that did not get stamped. Did you look under the grips and on the bottom of the barrel?

 

[Skeetr57]

Wasn't it the Gun Control Act of 1968 tht required the import stamps? If it was brought in before then, it wouldn't be stamped. The same if it was brought in by an individual rather than an importer, regardless of when it came in.

 

[k22fan]

The import stamp was not required until roughly 1986. The Gun Control Act of 1968 prohibited importation of military surplus guns for the first time. Approximately 1885 under Ronald Regan the Gun Owners Protection Act passed allowing importation of military surplus again. As part of its implementation an import stamp was required. I've read that the stamp was to allow a starting point for searching a firearm. Usually searches start with the manufacturer, go the wholesaler then the retailer. However, members here have posted that the import stamp was required to demonstrate that a tax was paid.

 

[gordonrick]

My Brazilian, purchased in the late 80's, has a small "RGDFLD N.J." stamp (for Navy Arms) on the left side of the grip frame under the stocks, so an import marking may be there but not in plain sight.

 

[Jack Flash]

The reason for the relatively low prices on 1937 Brazilians is that they came into the country as inexpensive surplus less than 20 years ago. 1917s hit the surplus market roughly 40 years earlier. ...

A lot of M1917s were sold right after WWI which would be more like 90 years ago. One thing we tend to forget is that the US did not declare war until 1917, and did not send fighting men (and their weapons) to Europe in significant numbers until well into 1918. The point is that many M1917s saw little if any front line service before the war ended. Many were then sold off as surplus, since the M1911 was the standard military sidearm. So these often survive in outstanding condition for a military weapon.

In the last decade or so there has been a lot of interest in US military weapons, and as demand rose, so did the prices on just about everything, especially handguns. The Brazilian guns may have seen military service, but not US military service, so their prices have not escalated as rapidly in the American market. A Brazilian may be a fine revolver, but it just does not have that flaming bomb stamp.

... In the mid 1990s I could walk a 1937 Brazilian out the door of a retail store for $150 to $200...

I bought one in that price range in the late '80s. Mine had significant pitting and other rust damage, which I understand is pretty common with Brazilians. I think this is a prime reason for the lower price. If you look at Jetto's pictures, his revolver looks like it is in decent shape and may well be an excellent shooter, but you can definitely see "condition issues".

Even if do you find a Brazilian in pristine condition, it almost certainly has an import stamp, which also tends to lower the price. All I'm saying is that there are a lot of factors that go into the price differential.