1917 Traget on GB

[red9]

GB currently has a 1917 converted to 38 with target sights, full length rib, and custom grips. It has a cockeyed hammer, but the rib and sights do not look like King. The "Roper" grips are a pattern I have not seen before. Regardless of these issues, I was prepared to grab it at the "buy it now" price, which sounded very reasonable as I have been looking for an affordable N frame King conversion. The listing indicates that the barrel and cylinder are not sleeved. I sent a question asking about the serial numbers on the butt, barrel and cylinder. Received response from seller-

"No serial numbers ever on butt, barrel or cylinder. 85769 inside crane. Govt. proof on left side of frame by rear sight and inside crane. No other marks."

BIG RED FLAG. I am afraid to touch it at any price.

Bob #946

 

[Muley Gil]

No serial number = no sale

 

[dewey]

It's against the law to have a firearm with out a SN...I BELIEVE ! It can't be xferred I know that much....dan

 

[TSQUARED]

I thought some of the early Colt's were only serially numbered inside the crane.

 

[Pisgah]

It's against the law to have a firearm with out a SN...I BELIEVE ! It can't be xferred I know that much....dan

Before the 1968 Gun Control Act, plenty of guns had no serial number.

If made without one, and before the law went in to effect, transfer is no problem at all.

 

[Sebago Son]

If the gun was a 1917, it had a serial number.

If these numbers are no longer there, they have been removed.

If these serial numbers were removed, this is an illegal gun. Possession and transfer are felonies.

I wouldn't take it if it were handed to me...

 

[red9]

Pisgah- prior to 1968, serial numbers were not required on rimfire rifles and shotguns. Serial numbers were required on all other firearms at least since the 1934 Firearms Act and probably long before that.

Tsquared- You are right about the Colts. They are numbered (still) on the crane (which is not part of what ATF classifies as the firearm) and also on the yoke, facing the crane, which is part of the frame.

Bob

ps- I contacted the seller again regarding the situation and this was his response:

Incorrect, the frame, inside the crane is part of the frame and is THE legal serial number.
All S&W's have the legal serial number inside the frame

 

[DCWilson]

ps- I contacted the seller again regarding the situation and this was his response:

Incorrect, the frame, inside the crane is part of the frame and is THE legal serial number.
All S&W's have the legal serial number inside the frame

Another reason not to buy the gun: the seller is a dolt.

 

[Sebago Son]

Well Said Sir!

Another reason not to buy the gun: the seller is a dolt.

... Or worse.

 

[Muley Gil]

"Tsquared- You are right about the Colts. They are numbered (still) on the crane (which is not part of what ATF classifies as the firearm) and also on the yoke, facing the crane, which is part of the frame."

Colt uses the term "crane" for the part that swings away and holds the cylinder.

S&W uses the term "yoke" for the same part.

The part opposite the crane or the yoke is "the frame". BATFE considers the frame, which is serial numbered, as being the firearm.

Even a totally stripped frame has to go through a FFL, unless it is a private party sale, and your state allows such.

 

[Hondo44]

ps- I contacted the seller again regarding the situation and this was his response:

Incorrect, the frame, inside the crane is part of the frame and is THE legal serial number.
All S&W's have the legal serial number inside the frame

The seller is mistaken and not knowledeable about Smiths. He is reading a factory assembly # on the frame inside the yoke, NOT THE SERIAL #. The only place a 1917 frame (and most Smith's until after the 1950's) is stamped with the serial #, is on the butt. If it's not there it's not anywhere (on the frame).

 

[bettis1]

Sounds like just a typical "Traget" to me.

Bob

 

[Jack Flash]

I am too old for an all-expenses paid stay at Club Fed, so I make it a practice to stay far away from any gun with "serial number issues".

 

[Green Frog]

OK, I'd like to get to see the pictures for my own ideas and inspiration files. Can you pm me with directions to the listing, please? I can't seem to find it.

Thanks ~ Froggie

 

[Tom K]

OK, I'd like to get to see the pictures for my own ideas and inspiration files. Can you pm me with directions to the listing, please? I can't seem to find it.

Thanks ~ Froggie

Search for this:

Smith & Wesson 1917 38 Spl.

It has only one bid on it so far - luckily, the bidder hasn't met the Reserve. Unfortunately, there's no way for any other bidders to know that this is a "problem" gun. The seller has 812 feedbacks so it's not like he's a beginner, and ought to know better.

Chances are though, that this gun has passed through any number of hands with the number under the crane being put down as the serial number. Unless someone gets a very close personal visit from the BATFE, it's unlikely to ever come to light.

 

[Green Frog]

Search for this:

Smith & Wesson 1917 38 Spl.

It has only one bid on it so far - luckily, the bidder hasn't met the Reserve. Unfortunately, there's no way for any other bidders to know that this is a "problem" gun. The seller has 812 feedbacks so it's not like he's a beginner, and ought to know better.

Chances are though, that this gun has passed through any number of hands with the number under the crane being put down as the serial number. Unless someone gets a very close personal visit from the BATFE, it's unlikely to ever come to light.

Found it. Many thanks, Froggie

 

[red9]

What really hurts- I like target conversions, I like smaller caliber conversions, I like those stocks (btw, can anyone ID them?), and I even like his buy it now price. I want that gun! If only it had a serial number (they are not the right size, but I do own a set of number stamps).

Bob

 

[Hondo44]

What really hurts- I like target conversions, I like smaller caliber conversions, I like those stocks (btw, can anyone ID them?), and I even like his buy it now price. I want that gun! If only it had a serial number (they are not the right size, but I do own a set of number stamps).

Bob

Bob,
There is a smidgen of hope yet. Even though he said the serial number is never on the butt, ask him if there is anything stamped on the butt. Because 1917 Colt's had the serial number on the frame in the crane, and a military I.D. # stamped on the butt, our un-knowlegeable seller may think a # on the butt, if there is one, is a military ID #, which is true!. Because S&W used the serial #, FOR THE MILITARY ID #! So if the butt # is there, you're good to go, and it would match the yoke #: see below.

Another possibility if there is nothing on the butt, is that the original serial number was restamped on the frame in the yoke. Here's how to tell:

Most of the parts that had the original serial # have been replaced. i.e., the barrel, cylinder and ejector star. However, if the original yoke is still on the gun which is likely, the original serial # is still there. It's on the rear surface of the yoke; with cylinder open, ask the seller to look thru one of the chambers with a flashlight pointing straight down across the front face of the cylinder which will shine light on the rear face of the yoke. The full original serial # is stamped there in very small numbers. If it matches the 85769 # that he gave you, which is a possible 1917 serial #, the frame was properly re-stamped with the correct serial # and you're good to go!

 

[Camster]

I am too old for an all-expenses paid stay at Club Fed, so I make it a practice to stay far away from any gun with "serial number issues".

....And I'm too cute to do anything that would land me in the pokie.
A few million other Smiths out there for me to choose from.