1917 with some English markings

[StrawHat]

Just got to photograph this one. I have heard of the “Not English Make” but no idea why it is stamped on this revolver.

Also quite a few inspection marks. If anyone can explain, please do!

Kevin

 

[StrawHat]

Some more photos.

Kevin

 

[andy52]

I can't give you much info on the markings but I'm pretty certain it's be reblued in it's long and useful lifetime.

 

[Absalom]

Those are British commercial proofs according to the Rule of 1925, which were required to be applied before a gun could be sold on the commercial market.

So they are from the time after the gun was retired from British service, but likely before WW II.

The nitro proofs are on the barrel; the mark above the trigger guard is the only one I can’t positively identify right now.

 

[s&wchad]

These are cool guns that have done some traveling!

I had one that was similarly marked. We supplied these to Great Britain under Lend Lease and didn’t want them back after the war.

GB was basically broke at that point and want to sell these to foreign markets (many came back to the US commercial market). British law required they go through proofing before they could be sold. You’ll find British proofs on the barrel, frame, and usually on the cylinder between each flute. “Not English Made” was required at that time on guns that we sold commercially but not produced in GB. They sure were stamp happy!

The eagle head/# stamps are from US inspectors who worked in the plants when the guns were originally manufactured. They verified that the guns were up to US standards and the parts were interchangeable between guns.

 

[DWalt]

The nitro proofs are on the barrel; the mark above the trigger guard is the only one I can’t positively identify right now.

I have one of the WWI British (.455 Auto) versions of the Colt M1911 and it has a similar stamping on the frame by the trigger guard (it always sort of reminded me of a penguin), in addition to the typical British crossed pennants. Must be some British military-related stamping, but I do not know any more about it than that.

 

[Absalom]

So then the British proofs were likely applied right after the war. I’m not too familiar with the 45’s. Would this have been one of the 20,000 or so that we sold to the British in July 1940? Somewhat before official Lend-Lease. I seem to remember Lee once explaining about those.

 

[opoefc]

We would have to know the serial number to determine when it was most likely sent to Great Britain, however I suspect it is a WW1 supplied Model 1917 and the proofs were applied when the gun became surplus to the military and was sold to a British dealer who then had the proofs done to make the gun eligible for sale in Great Britain. It later came to the US, perhaps when these guns were declared illegal for civilians to own
in Britain. Ed.

 

[chiefdave]

A WWI era US revolver sold/given to the British during WWII. The eagle's head by the trigger guard is a US inspectors stamp.

 

[LLOYD17]

I picked up a 44 HE 3rd model specifically because it had British proofs. I finally sent a letter request in recently to see the specifics. I believe it shipped with a 6.5” barrel, confirmed ship date in September of 1941 and I’m guessing it went to Remington-UMC.

 

[Texas Star]

I picked up a 44 HE 3rd model specifically because it had British proofs. I finally sent a letter request in recently to see the specifics. I believe it shipped with a 6.5” barrel, confirmed ship date in September of 1941 and I’m guessing it went to Remington-UMC.

I think your barrel has been cut. To 4.5 inch? Someone discuss the front sight, too.

 

[Absalom]

I picked up a 44 HE 3rd model specifically because it had British proofs. I finally sent a letter request in recently to see the specifics. I believe it shipped with a 6.5” barrel, confirmed ship date in September of 1941 and I’m guessing it went to Remington-UMC.

Good that you are getting the letter; please share the results.

A Sept. 1941 ship date and British stamps is rather unusual. You also may be getting WW I and WW II mixed up; Remington served as a conduit for revolvers to Britain in WW I, but had nothing to do with that in WW II.

In Sept. 1941, the British Purchasing Commission had been receiving regular large batches of .38 M&P’s for some time, soon to be transitioned to Lend-lease. It’s hard to see what the British would have wanted with an obsolete-calibered gun like yours at that time.

PS: I find the British proofs on your gun quite interesting. They are Birmingham commercial proofs, but look like no proof set I’ve seen on any military surplus revolver of any caliber, being oddly specific especially with the bullet weight. Have you deciphered the view mark to ascertain when it was proofed? I can’t make out the letter code (left quadrant in crossed sceptres).

 

[LLOYD17]

Good that you are getting the letter; please share the results.

A Sept. 1941 ship date and British stamps is rather unusual. You also may be getting WW I and WW II mixed up; Remington served as a conduit for revolvers to Britain in WW I, but had nothing to do with that in WW II.

In Sept. 1941, the British Purchasing Commission had been receiving regular large batches of .38 M&P’s for some time, soon to be transitioned to Lend-lease. It’s hard to see what the British would have wanted with an obsolete-calibered gun like yours at that time.

David Carroll recently sold a British proofed 44 3rd and gave me the shipping information on that one. As soon as I get the letter I’ll update the post on this one.

And it has been shortened to 4.5”. It’s all numbers matching including the magnas.

 

[StrawHat]

We would have to know the serial number to determine when it was most likely sent to Great Britain. Ed.

Serial number from the base of the grip frame is 121350.

Kevin

 

[LostintheOzone]

Dive into it. I think you're seeing 1904 Birmingham nitro proof on the barrel but I'm no expert in anyone's opinion, including my own.

PROOF MARKS PROOF MARKS - PDF Free Download

 

[2152hq]

OP's gun has London Proof House proof marks.
The bbl proofs are Definitive Proof (BP),,View Inspection Proof,, and Nitro Proof

They are in Circles because the firearm is 'Not English Make'

If the proofing had been done at Birmingham Proof House, their marks would also have been inside circles.
(Birmingham proof marks are seen much more often on English surplused firearms.

Maybe they were made to do the dirty work of the mass of surplus arms that must have gone on to the commercial market and needed proofing in the post war years.
London Proof House always carried kind of a higher class distinction though the two work under the same Proof Laws and regs.

I believe the Crown mark on the right side by the 'Not English Make' marking is a poor View proof marking. It would normally be a Crown/V
The V in a circle, same 'View Mark' as on the bbl.

The 'Not English Make' marking was a proof house marking used on,,obviously,,none English made firearms,,but only those that did not meet English Proof law demands at the time they were being sold, resold, or needed reproofing after repair.
In use starting in 1925. Taken out of use in 1954/55 with another change in proof laws and markings.

Some other European country's manditory proof laws were acceptible to the Brit Proof Laws, and those imports, resale did not need to be proofed.
USA having no Mfg or Gov't run Proof system that the Brits find acceptible makes any USA mfg firearm a must Proof firearm before it can be sold commercially.
Even if it's coming back from a War.

 

[mh51]

The eagle head over S9 was a final factory inspection mark to indicate military acceptance. The same eagle head over various S numbers can be found on Colt 1911's from WWI.

 

[Hondo44]

1917s WWII Era British proof marked: About 20,000 1917s were sold to Britain and will have British proof marks, Post #11 here: Model 1917 odd barrel markings - can you help?

 

[chiefdave]

I picked up a 44 HE 3rd model specifically because it had British proofs. I finally sent a letter request in recently to see the specifics. I believe it shipped with a 6.5” barrel, confirmed ship date in September of 1941 and I’m guessing it went to Remington-UMC. [/QUOTE

Unusual revolver befitting an Airdale. Glad a skimmer didn't get it.

 

[StrawHat]

Just looked again and found proof marks on the cylinder between the chambers.

Kevin