1921 Second model target

[AudieMurphy]

I've had this put away for awhile and was bored so I thought about finally fixing it. I need help on the rear sight. As anyone knows its the older narrower type. I have the front screw and the sight blade itself but the rear screw is missing. Im going to assume its the adjustable one. Does anyone have any info on this? where to aquire one. or does anyone have a picture of what Im looking for. By the way this was like this when I bought it years ago. I dont even know why the previous owner woulds remove it....Thanks for any help

 

[glowe]

It might be there, but without any information, serial number, pictures, or knowing the model, there is no way anyone can help you.

The early versions of the rear sight on S&Ws were push-up sight leafs. An SAT needed to be inserted in the hole then find the slot of the screw underneath the sight.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I don't know if this helps, but I have a S&W Screw Chart from 1909 that shows the I, K and N frame "sight elevating screw" was the same on all 3 models. Of course, it could have changed between 1909 and 1926. However, if you have a machinist that can make one, here are the dimensions.

Diameter: .135"
Pitch: 40
Tapping size: .112"

If you can't find a machinist, perhaps Jack First would be interested in reproducing them.

 

[AudieMurphy]

I don't know if this helps, but I have a S&W Screw Chart from 1909 that shows the I, K and N frame "sight elevating screw" was the same on all 3 models. Of course, it could have changed between 1909 and 1926. However, if you have a machinist that can make one, here are the dimensions.

Diameter: .135"
Pitch: 40
Tapping size: .112"

If you can't find a machinist, perhaps Jack First would be interested in reproducing them.

thank you sir!

 

[AudieMurphy]

It might be there, but without any information, serial number, pictures, or knowing the model, there is no way anyone can help you.

The early versions of the rear sight on S&Ws were push-up sight leafs. An SAT needed to be inserted in the hole then find the slot of the screw underneath the sight.

I cant post a pic because I dont have one and even know what one looks like.....

 

[Wiregrassguy]

I cant post a pic because I dont have one and even know what one looks like.....

Gary means a picture of the gun, not the screw. He wants to see the top of the top strap where the rear leaf goes.

 

[larryofcc]

I don't think you can see anything from this pic of a 1921 2nd model target from my collection and the gun is buried deep in my safe.
Be be very careful taking the gun apart. It has the ball and detent on the yoke. According to Dr. Jinks, these guns are rather scarce. Big Larry

 

[AudieMurphy]

yes, very scarce...thats why I want to get it right. But from what I'm learning is the same rear sight was used on all S&W of that era until they were changed to the modern style post war

 

[Wiregrassguy]

But from what I'm learning is the same rear sight was used on all S&W of that era until they were changed to the modern style post war

No. That's not true. I said the screws were the same...at least in 1909. The rear leaf is different to accommodate the different frame sizes. The leaf had two screws until the late 1920's when the elevating screw and top strap slot was changed and a 3rd locking screw was added.

 

[glowe]

If you know that your revolver was shipped in 1921, that rear sight would be a pull-down type and the screwhead would show as being flush with the top of the sight blade. You will have to have a screw made unless one might show up for sale. To accommodate this screw, the frame has a slot cut to accept the flange of the screw. I have no information on what diameter and pitch that screw would be?

 

[glowe]

yes, very scarce...thats why I want to get it right. But from what I'm learning is the same rear sight was used on all S&W of that era until they were changed to the modern style post war

The single screw pull down rear sight changed from those found before 1915 to 1932 when the rear sight was changed to a 2 screw design, the second screw became a locking screw. It changed again in 1940 with the K22 Masterpiece as it was the first offering of the micrometer rear sight.

I would estimate that between 15,000 and 20,000 38 Targets were made in the 1920s decade. 300,000 38 M&Ps total shipped from 1920 to 1930. The production of M&P target revolvers prior to WWII never made it to 10% of production based on information supplied by Roy over the years. It is very likely that between 5% and 7% is an accurate assessment of target revolver production for this period. That does mean that they are not scarce, but uncommon is a good definition.

 

[Muley Gil]

I don't think you can see anything from this pic of a 1921 2nd model target from my collection and the gun is buried deep in my safe.
Be be very careful taking the gun apart. It has the ball and detent on the yoke. According to Dr. Jinks, these guns are rather scarce. Big Larry

It is a spring-loaded pin with a rounded head, not a ball.

 

[series guy]

I have this if it fits your gun.

 

[larryofcc]

It is a spring-loaded pin with a rounded head, not a ball.

Pickey, pickey, pickey. What ever it is, put a bag over it when disassembling. Thanks for the clarification Mr. Gil. Big Larry

 

[larryofcc]

The single screw pull down rear sight changed from those found before 1915 to 1932 when the rear sight was changed to a 2 screw design, the second screw became a locking screw. It changed again in 1940 with the K22 Masterpiece as it was the first offering of the micrometer rear sight.

I would estimate that between 15,000 and 20,000 38 Targets were made in the 1920s decade. 300,000 38 M&Ps total shipped from 1920 to 1930. The production of M&P target revolvers prior to WWII never made it to 10% of production based on information supplied by Roy over the years. It is very likely that between 5% and 7% is an accurate assessment of target revolver production for this period. That does mean that they are not scarce, but uncommon is a good definition.

I must have missed something. I thought we were talking about 2nd model Targets. Aren't they N frame 44's? Questioned Dr. Jinks about mine, and he said they were scarce in target configuration. I see 1st models for sale more often. Thanks, Big Larry

 

[glowe]

Good question. As for the sights, the OP does state 2nd Model, but no reference to frame size or caliber. Neal's work states that both K and N frame guns changed their sights at the same time, so should more or less hold true for an N frame. Of course, the N frame had a much reduced production number, but percent targets might still be a similar percentage.

The OP did state 2nd Model, but no reference to caliber or frame size. Many people do not know what model of either frame size they actually had and did not supply any pictures.

 

[AudieMurphy]

I must have missed something. I thought we were talking about 2nd model Targets. Aren't they N frame 44's? Questioned Dr. Jinks about mine, and he said they were scarce in target configuration. I see 1st models for sale more often. Thanks, Big Larry

Big Larry...yes Thats what I have and were discussing also...2nd model 44 special serial number 172xx which dates to '21...I dont know when it was shipped...and dont care at this point...someday when I get it lettered We'll all find out....thanks dude

 

[AudieMurphy]

Good question. As for the sights, the OP does state 2nd Model, but no reference to frame size or caliber. Neal's work states that both K and N frame guns changed their sights at the same time, so should more or less hold true for an N frame. Of course, the N frame had a much reduced production number, but percent targets might still be a similar percentage.

The OP did state 2nd Model, but no reference to caliber or frame size. Many people do not know what model of either frame size they actually had and did not supply any pictures.

Sorry for the confusion....my mistake....Its a 44 special Big frame serial number 172xx

 

[AudieMurphy]

I have this if it fits your gun.

Mine is similar to that in dimentions...but mine doesnt have the 3rd screw in the rear and there is no notch and hole for one either....Also mine has the serial number stamped on the bottom so I know this is the one made for it......wow this is getting rather confusing. didnt realize there were more than 2 different sights

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Post pictures of the top of your gun where the rear rear sight leaf mounts and the rear sight leaf.