1st time reloading LHBWC, need help

[Big K]

I loaded some 148 gr Speer LHBWCs flush over 2.7 gr Bullseye in once-fired Remington brass with Winchester primers. I made 3 batches of 10 with varying degrees of roll crimp (over the top of the bullets) and headed to the range with my snubbie and what I'd heard referred to as a "classic" or "tried and true" load.

Accuracy was so bad I missed an 8.5" X 11" sheet of printer paper about half the time. I can usually get 2-3" groups offhand at that distance with factory fmj rounds.

So, the only conclusion I can come up with is that I must be doing something wrong with the crimp. Since so many people are using this recipe with such good results seems like that's gotta be me.

Here's a couple of pics of a few rounds where I intentionally backed the bullet out a bit for comparison. Does this look like so heavy a crimp that it would cause such wild inaccuracy?

 

[john traveler]

Yes, that is much too heavy a crimp for the HBWC bullet.

Plus, your bullets are not seated flush with the case mouth.

Try reducing your crimp to a taper or light roll crimp.

The 2.7 BE load is THE classic 148 HBWC load, and from factory swaged bullets, correctly loaded, usually gives 1" or smaller groups at 25 yards.

 

[H.Callahan]

You might play with the load a little bit. Most all my guns love 3.0 grains of BE -- although none of them would miss an 8.5x11 sheet of paper (unless it was at 100 yards -- wadcutters seem to get silly around 50 yards or so).

 

[Steve in Vermont]

Go to the "Search this Forum" section (upper right screen) and type in "crimping wadcutters". Lots of good info there. It appears you have to much crimp and seating needs adjustment. You don't need much of a crimp for such mild loads.

 

[cjw3]

Ditto with what everybody else has said.

HBWC's are soft and will not do well with that heavy a roll crimp. If you will get a taper crimp die and seat those flush I think you will be pleased with the results.

I went up to 3.0 grains of Bullseye to get cleaner burning and use that for 148 grain DEWC seated to 1.24" OAL, and 148 HBWC seated flush.

I get around 670 fps from one of my 2" Model 36's with the above load...really good for practice. A 4" M&P I have bumps it on up to around 750 fps. Good luck.

 

[Big K]

I REALLY appreciate so many responses so quickly. Thanks all.

I had trouble getting good pics of the amount of crimp when seated flush, so I backed the seating out a bit just for the purpose of the pics. The loads that were wild weren't seated this far out.

Do you believe this much over crimp would be the reason for such crappy accuracy?

If I understand correctly, I should set a really light crimp with a dummy bullet, then lock down my die and set the seat until it's flush with the case mouth. Does that sound right?

Do you think I should bump up my loads to 3.0 gr AND adjust the crimp at the same time? Or should I just test the new crimp setting and see if I need to change the powder charge based on accuracy?

 

[m657]

don't know about others, "Or should I just test the new crimp setting and see if I need to change the powder charge based on accuracy?" is where I personally would start....unless I knew I wanted a higher charge for other reasons.

And generally when I get to a certain point, I can fiddle around with all the various specifics in the recipes and still not have a "one and only" load.

Sometimes tighter taper crimp gives cleaner burning, but that hasn't been a driving point in my own loads.

I've only discovered the DEWC in the last few years, as my range use has changed games somewhat, and I don't use some of the older loads I used to like.

 

[Steve in Vermont]

I have found that seating and crimping in separate operations works best. I would suggest you stick with the 2.7 grain of BE for the HBWC and be sure to seat flush with a very light crimp. I use a roll crimp that's barely visible. And yes, if you apply to much crimp it can affect accuracy. Every bullet/powder/load is different and has its own crimping requirements. Don't mix and match them.

 

[cjw3]

Like Steve, I prefer to seat and crimp in separate operations. It takes a little longer but I swore off doing both simultaneously 30 years ago.

I think I would change one thing at a time, probably going with the lighter crimp first. Wadcutters seat so deeply that case tension alone should hold them in place, so basically all you are doing is removing whatever flare that was needed to seat the bullet. That's why I like a taper crimp die with wadcutters; set it once and forget it. When I get my next batch of SWC's in, I'm going to do a little experimentation with taper crimps on them as well for target loads in .38 Special. Anything loaded on the warm side will continue to get roll crimps.

2.7/Bullseye has been a proven performer for decades so I would be looking at something else before changing that.

 

[Big K]

Again, thanks for the input.

I have a 4-die turret with only a 3-die set in it. I didn't splurge for the 4-die set and have been regretting it. I've cranked out several thousand 9mm rounds and wouldn't dream of doing it w/out a FCD. No idea why I thought these should be any different.

That's what I get for being cheap, huh?

 

[Engineer1911]

Cheap is not always good, but cheep is mostly bad.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

The good news is, the FCD is less than $15 when bought alone. It's not as cost effective as when bought as a set but it's still better than not having it. (or any other company's crimp die you would prefer)

 

[Steve in Vermont]

Be careful loading the HBWC. There are other posts that detail this problem in more detail but to hot a load is not good. That's why 2.7/2.8 is so commonly mentioned. And don't get these confused with DEWC, they are different and should be treated as such.

 

[Big K]

Be careful loading the HBWC. There are other posts that detail this problem in more detail but to hot a load is not good. That's why 2.7/2.8 is so commonly mentioned. And don't get these confused with DEWC, they are different and should be treated as such.

Yeah, I've heard horror stories about skirts being blown off due to hot loads. I picked these bullets for 2 purposes: I'd heard the skirt will expand to improve bullet to barrel fit and I could get good accuracy with 2.7 gr BE for practice/plinking.

 

[ChuckS1]

When I load these, I put on just enough crimp to smooth out any flare at the case mouth, so there's probably no real crimp at all. These are paper punching target loads. If I recall, 2.7 grains of Bullseye run these around 750-765 fps out of a 6" barrel.

 

[nicky4968]

Instead of crimping, you could run the rounds through the sizing die again. This would eliminate the "bell" and may give you the improvement you're looking for.
Also, if you're going to change two or more things (powder, weight, primer, seating depth, crimp, etc.) only change one thing at a time.

 

[Big K]

Thanks for all your help guys! I feel pretty good about the new settings.

I raised the ram with a shell in the holder and unscrewed the bullet seater all the way. After I screwed the die in until it kissed the rim of the cartridge I added another half turn. That straightened a flared rim and ever so slightly rolled the top in. Then I just lowered the seater to the rim of a case and added a quarter turn.

The end result looks much more like it to me. What do y'all think? These look better?

 

[Steve in Vermont]

Depth looks good but the crimp is hard to tell in most pics, at least for me. Remember, very light crimp. I would suggest repeating the seating process and making turns of 1/8 turn at a time. As soon as you see a crimp forming stop there, that should be enough. I know that was the hardest thing for me. I wanted to see a nice obvious crimp, feeling that a little crimp was good, more was better. Not with wadcutters.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I agree, the depth looks right but from what I can see the crimp might still be a little heavy. Many reloaders don't add a crimp to those loads. I use an extremely light crimp, it's there but hardly noticeable.

 

[MKT]

My experience with the HBWC lead me to seat and crimp in separate steps. What happened with me, as the bullet is being seated the slight crimp is starting, which shaves off a sliver of lead. Those slivers and shavings congregate in the seating plaug and after 50 or so you'll notice the bullets seating deeper. Moving to a two step process completely stopped the shaving and lead build up in the seating plug. Others may, or may not, have had similar experiences.