2 inch, Pre-war M&P observation

[Hondo44]

Serial Number of Butt, Cylinder Face, and, underside of the Ejector Star all match.


Underside of Barrel is blank and appears to have never had any Numerals stamped in it, but for a letter N, close to the detent Lug.
N IS FOR NICKEL ORIGINAL FINISH.

Tiny letter N on the side of the Butt close to the Stock indexing Pin.
SAME.

And, on the other side of the inside or would be under the Stocks Butt area in tiny font, is stamped 759.
THE 759 WILL PROBABLY MATCH A NUMBER IN THE YOKE OR INSIDE OF THE SIDEPLATE. CAN'T TELL WHICH SIDE IS THE "OTHER SIDE".

What do we make of this?
NOT A REWORK DATE W/O A DOT BETWEEN MON AND YEAR AND MUST BE ON THE LEFT SIDE OF GRIP FRAME. WITHOUT A STAR IN FRONT OF THE BUTT SERIAL NUMBER, IT HASN'T BEEN BACK TO THE FACTORY.

Could it be a factory re-barrel?
NOT LIKELY.

A non-factory re-barrel?
LIKELY.

A factory re-finish of what began as a Blue Gun, but which was still in high condition and hence, had little buffing? Done in July 1959?
NO.

Or..?
IT'S ORIGINALLY A NICKEL GUN AND I AGREE WITH YOU, I DON'T THINK IT'S BEEN RE-FINISHED.

Could it be a pre-war 2 Inch?
YES, # 700,000 WAS REACHED BY '42 AND POST WAR WOULD HAVE AN S or C PREFIX TO SERIAL NUMBER. POST WAR STOCKS THOUGH.

Nice old gun!

 

[Oyeboteb]

Thanks Hondo44!


Stocks have no Numerals stamped in them, and, did not look quite right for me...thanks for pointing out they are Post War, I thought they might be.

 

[LOBO]

This is a post war M&P that I have been trying to find out some info on after receiving the factory letter. I'm wondering if it may have LEO ties.

 

[xray97]

Very interesting thread and beautiful guns guys!

 

[Hondo44]

This is a post war M&P that I have been trying to find out some info on after receiving the factory letter. I'm wondering if it may have LEO ties.

The pre war one line "Made In USA" stamping sure signifies it's an early post war gun as the letter says. But the stock medallions are post war nickel over brass, not silver per the letter, which are pre war and flat, (unless the stock serial # doesn't match the gun.) Some pre war silver medallions were used up after the war.

Could very well have LEO ties having been ordered by the County, but it's in such beautiful condition, could have been for a court baliff, truant officer, etc., etc, rather than a regular duty gun..

It's gorgeous!

 

[semperfi71]

Nice Pre and Post-Wars. I just assisted a friend in sending one to Pennsylvania...(wink).

 

[Oyeboteb]

What year would 562359 be assocciated with?


I do not have access to my S&W Books presently...

 

[Hondo44]

What year would 562359 be assocciated with?


I do not have access to my S&W Books presently...

1915 - 1942 241704 - 700000. Just noticed that yours has a post war thumbpiece. 2" sq butts are considered scarce. But your original barrel may have been longer.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Guessing by Lettered shipping dates posted for other M&Ps, and how mixed up they tended to be sometimes, would 1934 - 1935 be about right, for Serial Number 562359?


Thanks for the Thumb-Piece mention there Jim!

I was not aware of that, and, I had to go dig out some pre-War M&Ps to compare them, in order to see the difference.

I learned something new today!

 

[Hondo44]

Hi Jim,
How does one tell a pre-War from a post-War Thumb Piece?

Notice the thumbpieces on the pre war guns above. Your gun has the 4th style shown below.

Here's the pre war thumbpiece, the 'double hourglass' or double 'pinch' around screw hole with undercut checkered pad; left overs also used on very early post war guns:

2nd style, and first new post war thumblatch, still has the double 'pinch' but without relief cut under checkered pad.

The 3rd style was a single hourglass with a single 'pinch' in front of the screw hole like a #2 and from the center of the screw to the rear it's like a #4.

4th style (which was the first style Chief Special latch and on I and J frames it's the immediate pre flat latch style and post 1966 style):

On I and J frames, the 4th style was re-introduced after '66 for several years in both blue and stainless until the modern style took over with the lower half shaved off. When the 'classics series' was produced an exact copy of the pre-war style was introduced on them but was an MIM cast part.

 

[LOBO]

The pre war one line "Made In USA" stamping sure signifies it's an early post war gun as the letter says. But the stock medallions are post war nickel over brass, not silver per the letter, which are pre war and flat, (unless the stock serial # doesn't match the gun.) Some pre war silver medallions were used up after the war.

Could very well have LEO ties having been ordered by the County, but it's in such beautiful condition, could have been for a court baliff, truant officer, etc., etc, rather than a regular duty gun..

It's gorgeous!

Thank you! Yes, the grips are numbered to the gun.

 

[DCWilson]

What year would 562359 be assocciated with?

I have 544932 from December 1927 and 649956 from June 1935. I would think your frame was produced/shipped around 1928-29. (My guns are longer-barrel M&Ps, not snubs.)

The late '20s are too early for a two-inch K-frame, I believe, so I think the gun has been rebarreled. The 759 may indeed point to a factory return date. If the barrel had been replaced in a prewar or early postwar return to the factory, I would expect to see the serial number on the barrel flat, as factory policy was to transfer numbers to new parts through those periods. Later, replacement parts were simply added without reserialization, marked perhaps only with a symbol, or an S for Service Department.

Possibly the postwar stocks were applied to the revolver when it went back for the replacement barrel. I imagine the gun was nickeled at that time as well.

There may be other interpretations, but that's what runs through my brain as I sit here in the dark small hours on the west coast.

 

[pace40]

Guessing by Lettered shipping dates posted for other M&Ps, and how mixed up they tended to be sometimes, would 1934 - 1935 be about right, for Serial Number 562359?


Thanks for the Thumb-Piece mention there Jim!

I was not aware of that, and, I had to go dig out some pre-War M&Ps to compare them, in order to see the difference.

I learned something new today!

Need to be very careful extrapolating shipping dates from serial numbers in this range, especially on 2 inch guns. The lowest s/n I have documented on a 2 inch thus far, 597812 shipped in Sept. 1935. 626261 shipped in August 1934, and 625809 did not ship until Sept. 1946. If yours shipped as a 2 inch, it would be the earliest s/n in my data so far. The lack of s/n on the barrel is certainly suspect though it does show an "N" to match the finish designation. Probably a rebarrel but, if it were mine, I would letter it to know for sure... but then again, 2 inch prewar M&Ps is all I do right now.

 

[pace40]

Nice Pre and Post-Wars. I just assisted a friend in sending one to Pennsylvania...(wink).

And a fine one it is...

***********************

Jim....Great writeup on the thumbpieces!

 

[roaddog28]

Great revolvers guys. I have a 36 no dash with the 1 7/8 inch barrel. I am in the process of refinishing the revolver. Has some rust problems from the previous owner who did not take care of the revolver.
Regards,
Howard

 

[Oyeboteb]

Thank you Jim for the Photo series on the Cylinder Release Thumb-Piece evolution. it is very good to have been made aware of this.


I went on to the G'Broker and found a pre-war Nickel one and it will be on it's way shortly, so that will then correct that detail as much as possible anyway.

Now that I know the difference, the wrong one seems to stick out like a sore Thumb!

I need a Nickel Cylinder Release Thumb-piece for a 1946 Terrier, also, in case anyone has one rattling around in one of those shelf worn Cigar Boxes of old orphan S&W parts???

 

[Oyeboteb]

I have 544932 from December 1927 and 649956 from June 1935. I would think your frame was produced/shipped around 1928-29. (My guns are longer-barrel M&Ps, not snubs.)

Oh my, so, earlier than I had thought.

I bought the little M&P because I liked it, even though of course I was secretly hoping ( well, maybe not so secretely afterall, ) that it could be an early factory 2 inch, but I was not familiar enough with the Serialing range to know more narrowly.

The price was easy going and I am delighted with it, regardless, so, all's well there.

I will get some old aftermarket Mother of Peral Stocks for it I think.

The late '20s are too early for a two-inch K-frame, I believe, so I think the gun has been rebarreled. The 759 may indeed point to a factory return date. If the barrel had been replaced in a prewar or early postwar return to the factory, I would expect to see the serial number on the barrel flat, as factory policy was to transfer numbers to new parts through those periods. Later, replacement parts were simply added without reserialization, marked perhaps only with a symbol, or an S for Service Department.

Possibly the postwar stocks were applied to the revolver when it went back for the replacement barrel. I imagine the gun was nickeled at that time as well.

There may be other interpretations, but that's what runs through my brain as I sit here in the dark small hours on the west coast.

Thanks...


It is definitely unclear, anyway, as to what to make of it! Other than, as we all seem to note, that it had been re-Barreled, and, possibly by S&W at a later time/decade, using an earlier type Barrel, or, done privately, and, who knows when.

Just for the heck of it, I might just get it Lettered, and, see what the S&W Records have to say about it.


If S&W had done the re-barreling, ( pr Plated an previously Blue Revoler with Nickel ) would that tend to show in the records they access when doing a 'Letter'?

 

[Oyeboteb]

Need to be very careful extrapolating shipping dates from serial numbers in this range, especially on 2 inch guns. The lowest s/n I have documented on a 2 inch thus far, 597812 shipped in Sept. 1935. 626261 shipped in August 1934, and 625809 did not ship until Sept. 1946. If yours shipped as a 2 inch, it would be the earliest s/n in my data so far. The lack of s/n on the barrel is certainly suspect though it does show an "N" to match the finish designation. Probably a rebarrel but, if it were mine, I would letter it to know for sure... but then again, 2 inch prewar M&Ps is all I do right now.

Interesting!

I will of course report back to the Thread if or when I 'Letter' it, and I think I just might Letter it, too, so...stay tuned...

 

[DCWilson]

If S&W had done the re-barreling, would that tend to show in the records they access when doing a 'Letter'?

Unfortunately, no. The letter will tell you how it was configured when it left the factory and where it was shipped, but nothing beyond that.

There may be company records of a service return, but only 1932-1941 records have been digitized and made available for computer searches. The records are a project of the S&W Historical Foundation. If the gun did go back in 1959, there may be a record of its return for service. But until the records of that year are digitized, there is no realistic hope of finding out more.

It occurs to me that the half-round front sight on your gun may point to manufacture before the mid-1950s. I'm not sure how I would square that with the possible July '59 return.

 

[Oyeboteb]

Unfortunately, no. The letter will tell you how it was configured when it left the factory and where it was shipped, but nothing beyond that.

There may be company records of a service return, but only 1932-1941 records have been digitized and made available for computer searches. The records are a project of the S&W Historical Foundation. If the gun did go back in 1959, there may be a record of its return for service. But until the records of that year are digitized, there is no realistic hope of finding out more.

Ahhh...oh well...

It occurs to me that the half-round front sight on your gun may point to manufacture before the mid-1950s. I'm not sure how I would square that with the possible July '59 return.

Yes...

But on the other hand, I think I remember seeing some old Archive footage of S&W processes in manufacturing, in which a passing glance was made to the Repair Department, and, they had some pretty old stuff in there for repair and refinish, so it looked like in the 1940s or 1950s anyway, they were still doing repairs to their early Long Barrel, big Frame, American and Russian SA sorts of Revolvers, since it showed a few of those in process of being worked on.

And, I would actually expect that S&W even into the 1950s, would have had a lot of old Parts on some Shelves and so on, for prior styles and long gone Series and Models, in order to manage repairs of older Revolvers being sent in.



But, I am feeling bad now.

This Thread is supposed to be about the Boni Fide pre-War M&P 2 Inch Revolvers having a high percentage of LEO Shipping provenance, and, I did not mean in my enthusiasm with my new find, ( which I now realize is too early to have been one of the Boni Fide 'early' 2 inch versions anyway ) to have enticed detraction from the theme and reason!

Pardon me please.

It can happen so easily!